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Industry Townhall – Safety Culture

Join host Don Cooper and a panel of safety experts as they dive deep into the topic of behavior-based safety programs in the latest episode of the podcast. They discuss the importance of engaging workers, timely feedback, and the role of leadership in creating a safe work environment. Discover practical insights, real-world experiences, and strategies for improving safety culture within organizations. If you’re passionate about workplace safety and want to make a positive impact, this episode is a must-listen.

Key Takeaways

Key Takeaways from the Podcast:

1. Behavior-based safety programs enhance safety culture by engaging workers and making safety a collective responsibility.

2. Timely feedback is crucial in shaping behaviors and reinforcing safe practices.

3. Leveraging technology allows for instant feedback and proactive identification of at-risk conditions.

4. Leadership plays a vital role in creating an intentional safety culture and setting clear expectations.

5. Continuous improvement and collaboration are essential in driving meaningful change and keeping people safe.

Don Cooper 0:03
There is Mr. Daley in the flesh. How are you?

Mike Daley 0:08
Good, thank you. I see I could see you all along.

Don Cooper 0:11
Well, you know, I often say, you know, I’ve got a face for podcasts. So you know if people can put up with it, and then I’ll, I like to. I like to use video on all these zoom and teams calls because I think it conveys something more than than just the audio, you know, body language and communication is about 85% body language. So I think that’s pretty poignant for even safety. So Mallory will keep watching to see when Steve arrives. Oh, there he is. He’s signing in right now. He just texted me. So we’ll, we’ll give him another 30 seconds and then we’ll we’ll dive straight in. That’s a beautiful office you have there in St. John, New Brunswick, Mike.

Mike Daley 1:01
Well, thank you, Don. It’s just a little again, here in our condo. We’re looking right over at the harbor.

Don Cooper 1:06
Oh, nice. There’s, there’s a seafood place. There I went. I’ve been at Irving that I’d like to go I think right on right on the harbor. granulates. I think it’s called.

Mike Daley 1:16
Granted. Yeah.

Don Cooper 1:18
Yeah. Right. Yeah. That is my favorite place on the planet to eat lobster. Well, they have. I don’t know if they have it now. But they had a dish years ago called The lazy lobster. And, you know, they would basically de clock to full lobsters and bring it to you from the kitchen steaming hot. And it was like the easiest lobster meal you’d ever have in your life. And you didn’t have to work for it. So the next batter? Yeah, just add butter. Exactly. So

Mike Daley 1:47
yeah, you bet. It’s not it’s not cheap, but they make it easy for you to sell.

Don Cooper 1:51
Well, you know, that’s, that’s the thing when you if you make it easy, and it’s valuable, then you know, it’s worth paying for right? You bet. Well, I think we’re gonna dive straight in. Well, you know, Steve can jump into the conversation, and Mallory will let him in as soon as he arrives. And I’ll do an impromptu introduction of Steve, as soon as he gets in the room. So welcome, everyone to this episode of the industrial innovators podcast. And this is a special edition, specifically and industry Town Hall, on safety culture. And the reason that we put this together is we really just wanted to start to highlight an emphasis on safety, particularly in the Canadian industrial market, and start in this series to share wisdom from safety leaders. In other series we’re going to do as part of this safety series, we’re going to bring in some experts on on culture, design and on behavior design from a scientific standpoint. And, and round it out in our third series with with some practical applications of things that people can do to to really drive safety performance to create strong cultures and to, to never hurt anybody. Again. I’m the host, Don Cooper, and I’m passionate about this. I’ve been passionate about safety since I was a young university student in my my first industrial job 30 years ago. And I instantly realized that there is a difference between safety rules and safety programs and safety culture. And I’m going to share my insights on how I experienced that even at 20 years old 30 years ago. But you know, this, this conversation is about our panelists. And I want to take a moment to introduce each each of these. These awesome, gentlemen. We’ve got Mr. Mike Daly. Mike was he’s a 40-year veteran in the industrial space, according to what he told me a few minutes ago, give or take five or 10 years probably. And Mike was the corporate vice president of health and safety for Syncrude Canada before he transitioned from an owners organization into a consulting and coaching organization. And he’s now vice president of consulting with the sacred cow company. Steve Pathri. welcome Steve. Steve Pathri is another longtime veteran gentleman, and I’ve known for a lot of years. He’s the turnaround director for Warli. And I’ll give each of you a few moments to tell a little bit about your stories. And finally, I’ve got Tyler Douglas and Tyler is the quality and health and safety leader in my business innovator industrial and so what I hope in this conversation we’re going to get is the perspective of someone who comes from an owners point of view You and an outside consulting point of view, the point of view of a leader of safety and performance with a prime general contractor, and a frontline perspective with a subcontractor like our business. And I think those unique perspectives can give us all some, some really awesome ideas about how safety can be applied from a culture standpoint, it at each of those levels, because our perspective is that in order for there to be a strong safety culture, a creative culture, it needs to be supported and believed in at all levels of that engagement. The workers are on the frontline. And they are working in a facility for prime contractors and for subcontractors. And if there’s any misalignment in terms of values and beliefs and behavioral norms, then that’s when cultures can go alright. Mike, why don’t you tell us a little bit about you and your background.

Mike Daley 5:55
Hey, thanks, Don, and good afternoon. Hey, Steve. Hi, Tyler. First of all, Don, I’m really hoping that between Tyler and Steve, they’re going to bring the wisdom part of what you’re looking for. I’m not a subject matter expert on anything that you’ve talked about up to this point. practitioner. My background is refinery operations. So I started at Irving refining back in the 70s. Went out to Syncrude northern Alberta like a lot of people for a couple years. And it was good for me and good for my family and topped up my career there and retired from Syncrude in 2016. Headquarters is now in Edmonton. And do a little bit of contracting work I not quite comfortable using the word consultant, but do some contract work. And mostly focused on leadership coaching, field coaching at a number of operating sites, and with a couple of third-party service providers in a couple of different provinces. And also do some organizational risk assessments, working with folks. And it’s just been great keeps me young in between traveling. And I wish I could say I was always as passionate as you word on I was tend to be a high-risk guy in my career. And if somebody’s following me around, I probably still high-risk activities. But I catch myself or I’m open to feedback. But certainly over the last 20 years, I’ve had to shift quickly as my, as my children independence have entered the industry, it’s it’s caused me to have a different view of things. And certainly, like I said, I started in operations, but about half of my career was on the maintenance and turnaround side probably in turnaround more so than ever. And I gained a lot of respect for tradespeople quickly. People work in transient situations in terms of how they get set up for success there. They’re not sleeping in their own bed every night. And they get a lot of stuff coming at them. And as I look back now I can see a lot of opportunities where they weren’t set up for success from the owners perspective, and even from some of the supplier perspective. So that’s that’s kind of what turns my crank these days to keeps me young and get to hang out with young smart guys like yourself. So thanks for the opportunity.

Don Cooper 8:00
Or about how young are smart I am. But I appreciate the comments. I think Tyler’s the young, smart, good looking one in the group. I’ll take it. Mr. kasseri. Nice to see you pal. Why don’t we tell the audience a little bit about you and your background and and your your value system? Sure, absolutely.

Stephen Catherine 8:21
Stephen Catherine, I’m the turnaround director for Warli. Nice to see everyone on this call and I see a mic. I haven’t seen you in a while they’re so great to be on a call with you talking about safety. It’s certainly something that we’ve all been working diligently and as hard as we can to affect culture and different things along the way. And I think there’s been a lot abs and flows in that process, as we’ve all probably seen, you know, affecting our projects. My background, I guess, started 35 years ago, basically as a tradesperson. I’ve worked both in the industrial and commercial sectors of the business as a fire protection installer as well as a pipe fitter, steam fitter. So I do have quite a knowledge around around the workings in the field. As well as I’ve been a supervisor for a person, Superintendent, as well as a turnaround manager. Right now my remit revolves around our North American Union business which is inclusive of 17 and 18 sites and all of which we do turn around work at most of them. So, very busy. Very busy and I have a lot of risk involved in a lot of AP. Over the years, I’ve also had experiences dealing with different companies. So, you know, I was employed with the former company Jacobs. For many years, we got sold to another company orally, three years ago. So that certainly has been a transition time. You know, I’ve gained a lot of experience through both the companies. And there certainly are differing perspectives around what builds culture, I think part of it, too, is in the turnaround business. The limited time to build culture. When, as Mike said, we talked about a transient workforce are certainly things that I look at closely on how we affect culture. And, you know, the easiest answer is to say, well, you know, what Don said is we started with leaders, and it conveys his message down through through the ranks go down to the workforce itself. You know, there’s been some interesting things over the last couple of years that have affected that, and one of which is COVID, and the inability for leaders to be on sites and get in front of people. And I think that’s something to look at closely as what you know, how are we engaging from a leadership perspective down to the craft? And through our organization? And, you know, how are we showing that and instilling that in them with the timelines involved in turnaround work? It’s a difficult, you know, there’s certainly a difficulty in engaging culture in a short period of time. You know, we find our maintenance operations, which which are steady state, which are year-round folks that work on a site, the culture becomes embedded. And, you know, you look at ways that using that embedded culture, for the new folks that come in on a short term basis, that’s part of it. So I have an interesting perspective as well, because I also have the ability to look at all our clients sites. And there are certainly a lot of differences in operations are dependent on where you are and the culture that exists at sites. And so that, to me is another key consideration is, you know, the partnership with owners and building culture is imperative to make that happen. And, and it’s, you know, sometimes it’s difficult conversations, when we see that the culture isn’t where we believe it should be. You know, I’m a lot like Mike as well, where I came out of the field. So, you know, I thank Jacobs for instilling a lot of things in me that I learned over the years. Because I certainly didn’t start out that way. So that, to me, my mic set a really important point is that, you know, my family is also involved in in the trades. And I have had my family sitting in the lunchroom, while we’re giving discussions, and some pretty hard discussions. You know, over the years, we’ve seen fatalities and, and other things that have gone on. And so the connection to your heart, and to your family, I think is something that is important in the culture aspect of it as well. And if somehow, we get to where we’re really putting forth efforts in to a family concept. You think of it a lot differently if it’s your family, you would not send your child out onto the street without a helmet riding their bike. You know, there’s certain things I think and and it certainly changed my aspect over the years when I have family sitting and not just that, but the long term relationships that you see where you see a lot of people come back year after year to the same turnarounds. And they’re also family because there’s brothers, sisters. husbands, wives, kids and fathers working on these jobs. And so you know if we can capture that concept, I think is important as well. I could go on and on, but that’s what I got.

Don Cooper 15:16
No, that’s great. Steve, you know, what’s interesting is two things that I’ll share. One is, from a family point of view, I spent half of my career in the corporate world on the specialty services space working for guys like you, right as a sub. But I’ve spent the last half of my career as an entrepreneur, and with all of those people, you know, all of my team working for me, and, and the buck stops with me and but in both cases, I think the thing that struck me, culture comes from values. And if you’re going to create a strong culture, it’s got to be based in your values. And you mentioned family, my son works in my business. And he he’s actually listening in as one of the attendees on this webinar right now. They, the heightened level of scrutiny that I had, the first time I sent him out as a Pipe Fitter apprentice was, and literally I wasn’t on the job, I was handing him to other construction managers and superintendents who I trusted, not just to look after my business, but to look after my boy, that was, that was a really interesting feeling that I hadn’t experienced prior to that I certainly had it for all of my employees, you know, over my whole career. But you know, in terms of culture, you know, we, you know, here is, here’s our core values as a business. And our number one core value is family first. And I think I think you’ve got to have a value system, if you’re going to have a culture that’s going to protect your people. Right. I think that’s key, I think your message there about whether it’s your family, I think you need to think about your people like family, because they all have families, they gotta go home to their kids, their wives, their parents, and I think that’s such an important aspect of driving culture is having a value system about caring for your people, genuinely. I think that that was bang on the mark, Steve, whether or not it’s your kid or someone else’s kid, it’s someone’s kid, right? Tyler, you gotta you know, you’re you are the you’re the young guy on this call. And why don’t you tell us about your journey through safety, because you’ve chosen to be a safety professional. And tell us about you and your journey and your belief system around safety and culture.

Tyler Douglas 17:38

Yeah, first off, I just want to say, it’s great to meet both, both you guys, Mike and Stephen. I’m looking forward to some dialogue here and learning from some of your past experiences. So I took a bit of a unique road into the health and safety realm in that I’m a trained firefighter paramedic. And that’s actually how I got into the oil industry initially. So my mindset coming in as a 2021-year-old kid was on a more reactive basis and just came to a realization, you know, working a whole bunch of different jobs. I’ve been everywhere from remote drilling and service rigs, new construction turnarounds, pipeline, basically every upstream downstream service within the industry over the past 12 years. And initially, what I had realized is a lot of what the calls that I was responding to, the emergencies that we were attending to, were entirely preventable for one. But secondarily, all it really took was a little bit of training and a cultural shift, you know, it’s a mindset more than anything to make sure that you’re taking the appropriate steps and following procedures, policies to a tee, as opposed to taking shortcuts. So like I said, my mindset is just a little bit different because I kind of work backward, you know, from worst-case scenario to how to avoid, as opposed to setting up from step one to avoid the incident or the event. To Stephen’s point, you know, one thing that I’ve tried to do, I’ve bounced around to a few different companies, especially during my turnaround lifecycle, so bounced to quite a few different sites, quite a few different coveralls and to Stephen’s point, I’ve always tried to take some of the positives from different sites and different companies and even, you know, as specific as a unique crew. You know, some things that I found a ton of value in, referencing back to Family First, is creating a little pocket guide. I think that’s one of the most useful tools. You know, when guys are kind of toeing the line and taking on a little bit more risk than they should, something as simple as a photo of your family or your dog, or whatever the case may be, something you hold close, you know, as you’re pulling out measurements or a drawing out of your pocket, and that’s kind of intertwined. You know, it just gives you that little mindset reset. And, you know, just wanted to touch upon that Mike’s comment about having a bit of a higher-risk career path and some of the choices made as a younger individual. And, you know, there is, obviously, we’re working in a high-risk industry, you know, there’s no debating that. And I’m sure from an outsider’s perspective, a lot of things I do in my life, I like fast cars, I like cliff jumping, you know, all that fun, adrenaline-seeking stuff. But the difference between being high risk is a calculated risk. And, you know, you can have two, and they coincide very well together. But the calculation is the key and implementing the controls. You know, my experience in the health and safety realm has mostly been around face-to-face engagement, you know, being on the front line with the guys, so, you know, mostly field experience. I’m fairly new to more of an administrative office side of the world. But yeah, I’m just happy to be here to, you know, impart, like I said, a unique perspective from the emergency services side.

Stephen Catherine 21:34

of the world.

Don Cooper 21:37

Awesome, thanks, Tyler. For me, guys, I got into this space totally by accident. I was in university, and I was planning to be a lawyer of all things, believe it or not, and to pay for that, I needed to get a job. And I got a job on the end of a hydraulic torque wrench as a 19-year-old kid who was trying to pay tuition. And one of my first journeys, as when I was not quite a little bit, I think I was 20 at this time when I got this first, you know, real AHA about safety, culture, and the difference between rules and culture. I was on a job in northern British Columbia, the demolition of a gas plant, working for a subcontractor, we were doing all of the scaffolding asbestos removal work while they were tearing down this gas plant and working for a prime contractor. And I won’t name any of them to protect the innocent. But what I, you know, not knowing what I didn’t know, I mean, it was really interesting. I was on the, I think I was I got into the industry on the tail end of when we’re, I’m much more higher risk tolerance in our industry. Because on that one job, I got to see, you know, for the first and only time in my life, I got to see an ironworker riding the ball on a crane. Not a lot of people have seen that in the last 10, 15, 20 years, I would suspect. I was on that job. And we still had safety belts, and they were just introducing, you know, proper, you know, five-point harness systems, but they didn’t have lanyards, it was just a hard lanyard. So those were a couple of things that I saw, you know, in the first months of my introduction into this space. But I was a university student, and before I was going to go to law school, I had to do all of these psychology and sociology courses all about human behavior. And I found that interesting, but it was all going towards this law degree. And so I had an interest in human behavior because of that. And I remember being in this plant, and I was up about three pipe decks, stripping asbestos. And as we would strip the asbestos, the ironworkers and the pipefitters were cutting it and removing all this material as part of the demolition. And, you know, for days, I would see metal flying and stuff being dropped to the ground and people would flame cut a piece of pipe and drop it, you know, 20, 30 feet down to the ground, to try to, you know, what I thought was normal rip and tear demolition work. But I was high enough up that I could see the site offices. And I remember this moment where I saw this whole group of white hard hats with yellow vests leaving the site, the site offices, and then I noticed whistling, and I looked around and all the behavior changed. All of a sudden, they were using taglines and they were not allowed. All of their actions totally transformed. And in that moment, I realized there’s a difference between how stuff gets done in that culture and what the rules are supposed to be. And I instantly realized culture isn’t what is written down. It’s what people do. And it’s what people do when no one’s looking. And so it was in that moment that I decided I got to dive more into this. And I started down the path of becoming a construction safety officer because I wanted to learn more about safety. And I never became a safety professional full time. But I use that background to kind of guide my thinking as a supervisor, as a manager over the years. And I think it always intrigues me that, you know, safety is about behavior. It’s about human behavior, and it’s about values and beliefs. So that’s kind of where we all are, guys. And I think we all have very unique perspectives on this. And I think every one of us has seen good, bad, and ugly in this industry. Hopefully, we’re trending more and more towards better and better performance and progress. So on that note, you know, I initiated this conversation because with the energy crisis that’s going on in North America right now, something really caught my attention. And that was in the last couple of months, there have been two major refinery explosions. One in Eastern Canada where eight people were badly burned. One of those people is a colleague of mine who is in the same industrial space. He’s a longtime veteran of the leak repair industry. I have no idea of the nature of what he was doing when that explosion happened. But I do know he’s in the hospital, and he’s got bad burns. So this is real close to me and real close to a lot of the people in our industrial specialty and it here in Canada. And then there was another a couple of weeks later, there was a major explosion at a refinery in Ohio that is now owned by Canadian energy companies. And two people were burned in that explosion and killed. And of course, we know about the rash of fatalities that has led to a lot of change in the oil sands in recent months. And so I guess my question, you know, to start the conversation, to dive in beyond who we are is, where’s our industry at in terms of reaching zero? What is the journey from your perspectives? Mike?

Mike Daley 27:14

Great question, actually, it’s great listening, you guys already covered quite a bit of material there, which is good. I should have been written that down. But it’s great. It’s a great question. And I think my answer is probably going to be all over the map. I think that’s where the results are all over the map. And kind of left me with a couple of thoughts, maybe more questions than thoughts. And certainly, there’s a number of slogans out there, which are good, like Journey to zero, Road to 0, whatever. And it’s a great aspirational target. And I applaud organizations that are putting that vision out in front of people. I think, unfortunately, the intellectual understanding that goes with that with good old plain old-fashioned leaders like myself, a lot of us, when it got rolled out in different organizations, weren’t equipped to really understand what it meant, what it meant for us as a leader. And that, you know, it’s much more than putting up banners and posters and giving people high fives, or they say, “Oh, we’ve gone 15 days without hurting anybody.” And I would assert that organizations that still talk about how many days ago without an injury are probably doomed to failure because they’re really focusing on the lagging indicators, you know, and certainly, they need to celebrate those milestones. But the real question is, are they talking about the presence of the controls? Like, what’s keeping them safe? Are they only talking about the fact that they went another day without hurting somebody? So maybe we’ll talk about that maybe a bit more. We talked with culture. But I think from my perspective, on the road to zero, I think that old cliche about it’s about the journey, not the destination, I think that’s categorically probably the only way to ultimately achieve zero vision for a sustainable period of time. And then the other question would be, how do you know when you arrived? And do you really ever arrive? That was probably the other question. And if nobody got hurt yesterday, does that mean you’re at zero injuries? Because we got to go to the hospital yesterday. So I think it opens up lots of conversations and lots of questions. I think, unfortunately, a lot of the conversations are missing, and they don’t happen, even the conversation. And I’ve seen some opportunity. I see some companies do this, actually, when nobody did get hurt yesterday, they’ll say, “Hey, nobody got hurt yesterday, guys. Tell us what we did. But why did why do we send to the hospital?” So it’s just another way to kind of keep the conversation alive. The other perspective that I’ve observed, and I don’t know if you folks have seen the same thing, but certainly the number of minor injuries has been reduced significantly over the last 10 years. And there’s a number of very mature organizations that have very advanced systems and good people and whatnot. But they seem to go for months, like quarters, without any near misses, without any first aids, and all of a sudden, wham, they get like, got two medical treatments, that are medical treatment, and a lost time injury in the span of three days. And while the world has changed since some of those benchmark studies were done going back 50, 60, 80 years ago with the old pyramid, it is still hard to fathom how people could work safely all along and then all of a sudden have a couple of events happen. And, you know, I would offer up that certainly, training, PPE procedures, rules will get a lot better over the years. But I personally believe, while there’s always been a lot of underreporting, I should say, well, there’s always been some degree of underreporting in different organizations. I honestly believe there’s a fair amount of underreporting that goes on today, just from my own experiences. And I think there’s a number of things that conspire against that. And one of them might conspire is the road to zero, like nobody wants to be the person that causes their boss’s scorecard to go red or be the reason why if you’re a third-party provider, well, you might get thrown off-site or whatever else might happen to people from an unintended consequence. But I think we certainly, about 15 years ago, we saw a step change in reporting for first aids, for sure. When AMD testing went universal, just a lot of people would put their finger in their pocket, let a clot over and go home that night and flush it over. Right, I should say a lot of people. I mean, a number of people did, reality was. And so we end testing, the focus on zero, the focus, and some leaders that might think it’s more about blame, as opposed to seeking to understand why the incident happened. I think all of those have brought conversations to talk about not having injuries. So that’s the downside, when all this gets talked about are the ones that you have to report. Like, you can’t hide a broken leg, and you can’t hide 10 stitches. So I’m not suggesting everybody’s hiding things. But if you look at most of the injuries, they seem to come out of the blue. And certainly, there’s not a lot of low-level injuries get talked about like they used to. And I think that’s another aspect and unintended consequence of culture. A lot of people felt they were punished for reporting some of the lower things. So anyway, it’s kind of my spin on a little bit of intro in terms of where I think the culture might be, but also where a number of organizations might be on the road to zero, missing conversations around. What are we focused on today? Like, what are the controls? What are the behaviors that we have to do to protect the zero, as opposed to just coming in tomorrow morning and high-fiving, saying, “Oh, we did another day”? Because if we’re doing that, we’re really just relying on luck, I believe. So, a couple of thoughts. Now, Stephen, your thoughts. You’ve been in an organization that has one of those journey goals.

Don Cooper 32:36

Right. So that’s an interesting point, actually, is around that journey. So, you know, in Jacobs, the journey started with the Texas City Explosion and the fatalities we sustained there. At that time, there was an identification, you know, through the evaluation of that incident, that the culture was not there. They decided, as a group, that they would go outside the company to look for support to affect a culture change within the whole company, including leadership. You know, that was really gauged upon, you know, Mike had mentioned the culture of caring, so that was gauged towards the idea of caring for each other as individuals, not just from a worksite perspective, but also from a home and family perspective, and taking it with you. And spreading that kind of culture, you know, through all your family as well. And so that was an effective program for a lot of years. I can tell you that over the years, the stats, so the new company, you know, that acquired us, basically, has a culture, but it’s not similar to the Jacobs culture that they did have. It’s not wrong, it’s just different. So when we look at some of that, and I, again, I look at from our own company, overall yearly stats, in fact, this morning, I was just looking at our SOPs for fiscal year 2022. Not just around the assurance and safety, but from a company perspective. We seem to, you know, and this has been talked about, actually, for quite a few years, as you know, we got to a point where I can remember being on sites and I won’t mention the sites, but I was involved in a site where there were five fatalities in one year. Basically, you know, affecting a lot of people and impacting me from a mental standpoint in a big way. And basically, I did leave the site. And I can tell you that a lot of it was around culture. And what transpired, it looks to me today that we’ve kind of flatlined. We’ve gotten, you know, we haven’t gotten rid of them 100%. Because we know what’s been happening up north right now, around the fatalities. And it looks to me like there’s a culture and shift change underway up there right now that’s being proposed around human performance. And exactly what we’re talking about today, around culture. I can recall the results of that same initiative when I left there after the five fatalities. And so, you know, the one thing is, do we really, you know, do we really all believe in it? And do we really all want to make it happen? I think at times you need to look at, I don’t think, you know, so we basically flatlined, and I’ve seen that over the years, that we still have incidents, we’ve gotten rid of the major incidents, for the most part around critical work, a lot of it revolves around the smaller, incidental kind of daily activities, and some tasks become monotonous and repetitive. And then there’s also a look at, you know, some basic things like walking has become certainly prevalent in our industry, as well as a lot of slips, trips, falls. And a lot of stuff around hand injuries, is what I see from today. I think we’ve taken steps forward at times, and I also think we’ve taken steps backward, backwards, and I’ll specifically point around, you know, the economic realities over the last few years, and how it affected from, from a contractor’s perspective, our ability to manage the projects, and in turn, manage the culture and safety of our folks. You know, very difficult to track, you know, to look at leading indicators when basically, you know, over the years, we’ve been asked to reduce the indirect contact of our organizations as a cost-saving measure. And so that, again, to me, when we speak about where we are, or where the culture is, the culture shifts, sometimes due to the economy. And it’s really driven a lot of times by the owners, on how that shifts, and then it affects our ability to manage leading indicators to do those sorts of things that keep the program robust and relevant. So, to me, that’s kind of where we are today, I think. The other thing that I see a lot is that there are a lot of competing values. Inside of that, when you talk about values, you know, there are values around equity, sustainability, safety, you know, so there are a lot of competing values and cultures that we’re trying to portray today. And sometimes that becomes overwhelming as well. And it, to me, at times, maybe, you know, softens our approach at times. So that’s kind of where I think we are today. I think there are still a lot of folks that, you know, basically are having difficulties coming out of COVID and reengaging. What we knew as our values pre-COVID.

Don Cooper 39:32

I think there needs to be an extra effort by all leaders and managers to probably overcommunicate and overemphasize and increase their visibility because of the changes that have happened because these changes of how we all work over the last two years have been massive. And I think it, I think the engagement with everyone I think is key.

Stephen Catherine 39:55

right? And so when you look at engagement, that’s a perfect topic because it’s something that I’ve been looking at over this turnaround season is we’ve lost the engagement from a site. Let’s talk about even just a site safety meeting. There are still a lot of places right now that we do not have a site safety meeting. And we’re basically delivering the messages at the toolbox talks through the foreperson. Right. And that could be a hit-or-miss situation.

Don Cooper 40:30

that I’ve had, I’ve had client situations where I’ve had crews on turnarounds and on projects, I simply wanted to go out and be part of the safety meeting. And in order to do that, the client had required me to go through three days’ worth of their site-specific training to be on site for two hours, I thought, “Wow, what a massive obstacle to creating engagement.” There should be better ways to allow leadership to engage because, you know, as contractors, and you’re the same as me, Steve, one as a prime, one as a sub, but we don’t live on one site, at least us from a leadership standpoint, we might have 20 different sites that we need to visit. We certainly can’t maintain as leaders 60 days’ worth of orientations every year, right? And I thought that was an interesting, and that was really, really poignant during Jordan COVID, that you could not get anywhere, but some of those rules, bureaucracies, whatever that are put in place, I didn’t create some barriers to engagement, for sure.

Stephen Catherine 41:33

Right. For myself, I had the ability. And because of my responsibilities, I did actually travel to all our turnarounds. I make it to every turnaround that we do every year for at least three, four days and try to support the team from a safety perspective, as well as a site support perspective. I also think that that’s where we need to shift the culture back. It’s one thing that I’ll never forget is the time that our Jacobs executive leadership talked to come to our sites and affect culture. I can remember one incident, I used to have a mentor assigned to me in Vegas, and that was a gentleman named Phil Staci, who would come and see me at least twice a year. And he was located in Pasadena. And he had come up to a turnaround and basically engaged our crew in a safety meeting discussion. And was a, you know, was a very well-spoken communicator. And basically, he had encouraged everyone to stop the work if it wasn’t safe. And what he had told them was, if someone asks you why you stopped the work, call them that Phil said, “I could.” And I can tell you that when people left that meeting, they basically put stickers on their hard hats that said, “Phil said, I could.” And that, to me, again, is the effect of leadership in culture. You know, especially when it comes from a sincere and honest perspective. Right. So that’s where I think we are today, I think, you know, we are still, you know, finding ways that some of it I look at and, you know, I look at some of the incidents, and I say that we don’t have the culture on that site right now. Because because of the way this went down, and how do we affect change of that culture? It comes in many different ways. But it starts with us as leaders, really engaging folks in a meaningful way, Pilar.

Don Cooper 44:20

From a frontline perspective, we heard you know, talking about results and journeys and culture. Give me your point of view.

Tyler Douglas 44:28

Yeah, so I, my first experience in the industry came, I guess, probably mid to late 2000s. So I think at that point, there had already been a start of a cultural shift towards the zero injury goal. It’s funny because there’s kind of, you know, when I came into the industry, there’s a tale of two stories. There’s, you know, kind of the young guns who are being brought up and trained and explained what zero injury, what the premise of it all was, and then you know, there’s the old boys club was a little bit more of resistance to change, which is understandable, you know, that’s human nature. But it kind of left this, this line in the sand when I was first coming in and, and then, you know, it was interesting to see the blend from mentors to mentees. And it went both ways, you know, sometimes the young guys are picking up bad habits from, you know, from the old dogs imparting their experience. And, and, and vice versa, you know, sometimes, you know, that the habits of the young guy and, and the prompt of, you know, being told to put your gloves on or your glasses on 15 times by a kid who’s been in the industry for months. You know, it’s frustrating. As frustrating as that may be. You know, I think that was the first shift in the culture that I began to see. And, you know, it’s definitely advanced, both culturally, through technology, through different types of controls, whether you know, engineering, administrative, PPE, whatever it may be. And just making safety, you know, it’s an industry standard now that everybody has a policy around safety. And it’s usually one of the top selling features for any site or any company. So I think just having it as forefront as it is is helpful in shifting that culture. But even more, so I think, maybe over the last, say, seven to 10 years, the hazard ID and behavior-based observation programs, I think, have been super beneficial to, to again, just get that engagement from the frontline craft, you know, us for individuals, we can’t be on site 365 days with our crews, and you know, the larger your company is, you know, to Stephen’s point, more difficult that can be, you know, it’s very commendable to try and get there as often as possible. But some of these tools can be utilized uniquely in and not only trending but also shifting the focus of an individual, you know, if they’re continually inundated with, you know, issues of drops across the country, or even across industry, nationally, or internationally, sorry. You know, it just, it just really does. It just focuses on, you know, street production and task at hand to that little bird on the corner of your shoulder that’s just chirping at you every so often to, hey, think about this, here’s a reminder of this. But I think the biggest key from the leadership side of things to continue this growing is closing loops and direct engagement. You know, I think something that I’ve seen far too often and, you know, grumblings from the frontline is, you know, I have to fill out these documents every single day, and you know, it’s a pain in my butt. And, you know, it’s just a waste of time, I’m not getting any benefits out of it. I, you know, I don’t know where these are going. Is anybody even looking at these? So I think that’s, that’s kind of a mental thing I’ve made for myself is to ensure that when guys are using these tools that they feel like they’re being heard. And they are. You know, I think Mike made an earlier point about the hazard reporting and reporting incidents being seen as negative. You know, I think that’s another cultural shift that’s continually progressing. And it depends on the culture and the site. But, you know, it’s gotta be a shift from placing blame of, you know, why did you do this? Or why did you not do this, you know, extra missions, and shift that towards learning. You know, that’s the key is, people are going to make mistakes, there’s, you know, it’s, again, a human quality, no matter how prepared we are, no matter how experienced we are, there’s always the tendency to err. So instead of, you know, dragging the guy through the coals and making it a negative consequence, take learnings and share the learnings and turn it into a positive reinforcement. And I think that’s the way you need to tailor your culture, every site is going to be different, every crew is going to be different, every company is going to be different. So you really have to learn how to tailor, you know, what works for you guys to reach that zero goal. You know, I think that’s where we all want to be at. And like I said, certainly in my career tenure, I’ve seen leaps and strides from where it was and, you know, I was never exposed to body belts or static lanyards or anything along those lines. But what I’m really starting to like is that a lot of our frontline guys are bringing up new innovations and better ways to complete some of their tasks. So it’s not necessarily just management pushing it down to the craft, it’s got to be a two-way street, I think. And, you know, if we don’t have the opportunity to have hands-on tools and complete the tasks at hand ourselves, that input can be vital for, you know, improving and continually getting closer and closer to that zero incident culture. And beyond that, you know, trying to develop the culture within craft to craft, I think that’s one of the more difficult things to try and progress is, you know, you can explain all you want in meetings and documentation, but it really has to be a buy-in from individual to individual. And once you start seeing that, it just kind of spreads like wildfire, you know, you get one guy on board. And, you know, it’s no longer seen as uncool to wear that piece of equipment or to take that extra step. You know, it just becomes habit and routine. And that’s where it develops from there. So I guess in summary, we’re close to zero injury. I think, you know, again, to my explanation, I think there is still some underreporting and burying of some of the near misses and that sort of thing. I think there’s still tons of room for improvement. But, but I think as time progresses, we’re getting closer. So the goal is not unachievable, it’s just a matter of making sure we’re taking the right steps and doing the due diligence to ensure that our people are set up for success, as opposed to just writing something out, putting it out into the world and hoping for the best. It takes a little bit more legwork.

Don Cooper 51:51

Awesome, thanks. Hi. I’m gonna double back to what Mike said about, you know, the zero and if our client or all of our clients are lost, and all of us often will write, you know, how many days since an injury. And you know what that is, you know, as Mike pointed out, it’s a lagging indicator. Well, I’m not that smart, by the way. So I have lots of coaches who kind of give me their insight. And I spend a lot of time on this. I’ve got a coach in New York Business Coach, his name is Keith Rosen. And he says, You cannot manage a result, you can only measure it, but you can manage behaviors that create results. And it was through that coaching that I got from him a long time ago, that our cultural value that I wear on my shirt today, which is behaviors matter most they create results, and management can kind of report and measure results, the craft, they don’t get anything out of that. But if you are recognizing and rewarding their behaviors and measuring their behaviors and recognizing that you can start the process of engagement from from a protection standpoint, Mike, you mentioned about, you know, do we ever reach there? Or is it a journey, I’ve got another coach, his name is Dan Sullivan. And he says that perfection is trying to reach the horizon, that you can walk for days, but the horizon keeps moving. The only way you can measure progress is if you stop for a minute, and you look back, and you measure from where you came. And so I think that’s a you know, he’s got a book called The gap in the game. And it’s about measuring progress based on where you came from, not where you’re going, because the horizon will always move. And, and to the point of Mike’s point that we’re underreporting, like I spend every day as you know, Tyler talking about safety and culture and how we’re going to continually improve how we do things. And just two weeks ago, one of our younger managers called our operations leader and myself and said, Hey, we just had a first date. And I’m afraid if I report it to the client, we’re gonna lose our contract. What should I do? I said, you report it, you report it right now. Thank you for reporting it to us. And, you know, we didn’t treat him like, you know, he was being ostracized, we just needed to give him coaching signal forge ahead, go to the client report, it’s a first aid, we report everything we believe in transparency. And, you know, if if, for some reason, we have a client who doesn’t value that, I don’t want them as a client. Like I really don’t, like I want clients who have, you know, have a belief system and a strong safety culture at all levels. And, you know, that’s what we look for one of the three attributes that we look for, for our clients, and it’s defined and we talked about it all the time, is we want clients that have a strong safety culture, that at all levels of the organization, they their values and beliefs are show up in behaviors. So, you know, even even when you are at it every day, some you know and to Steve’s point around Phil calm and reinforcing what a foreman might be telling them. You know, even if even to this day, we need to reinforce things to young managers and young supervisors so that they feel comfortable with doing what is uncomfortable, because reporting an incident is never comfortable, because they may as you know, in their in their tenure view it as their own personal failure or some risk of their contract or something like that. And we need to just be resolute that we are going to be reporting and encouraging reporting of all incidents, so that so that you don’t have six months down the line, a rash of three injuries, when you didn’t even have a, you know, a near miss for the last six months.

Tyler Douglas 55:42

I think that’s that, that’s one of the things that’s so important is the continual education. And, you know, especially when things are going well, just reiterating how important the steps that are being taken are producing the results because it can be forgotten.

Don Cooper 56:01

And there’s lots of great work on this around the leading and lagging indicators. There are a lot of people smarter than me who’ve written lots of great work on this. John Dewar wrote a book on it. There’s a book called “4DX” by Sean Covey. It was a great read and thinking about leading and lagging indicators. But the moral of the story and all of those is you can’t manage a result, you have to manage and lead and encourage the behaviors that create results. Every one of them more consistent than that. And I think that that’s, that kind of leads to the next part where you know, our industry, I remember the shift when we all started to, in some way or form, implement some versions or some interpretation of behavior-based safety. But when I talk to craft and when I even when I write about it, I get feedback on social media. It’s all over the place, how frontline craft perceive what behavior-based safety is all about? Because they think it’s about filling out a current. What is it, Mike?

Mike Daley 57:09

What is behavior-based safety all about? Well, I don’t find give you the textbook example. But just to kind of pivot off something that all three of you said there, y’all everyone, he has mentioned the word reinforcement several times. And you mentioned behavior several times, which says a lot of progress in the industry is continuing in terms of behavioral-based safety. And I’m a big fan of a release safety. And I’ll say full disclosure, I never got to really work it and understand it too well touched it from the periphery. You mentioned the trades, people not liking the cards, virtually every level of leadership I worked with didn’t like behavior-based safety and thought it was really stupid and bureaucratic. And I would say that’s because they didn’t understand the science, didn’t understand the behavioral science, what it was rooted in. And, you know, Steven mentioned human performance PhDs and both sides of the equation these days in terms of what is the silver bullet, and reality is there is no silver bullet. There’s nothing new under the sun. It is all about reinforcement. It’s about observing people set people up for success. Where I’m starting to say I don’t know the textbook example of behavior be real based safety. But I’m also a big fan of behavioral based leadership, which isn’t a whole lot different. But I would offer up that behavioral based safety is probably the intersection of humans in science and technology, and where they all come together to do things the right way. And certainly, a big one of the one of the planks in behavioral-based safety is observing people. And it’s certainly not not not to say they’re a terrible crafts person or a terrible human being. But it’s that it’s kind of predicated on the belief that there can only be one best way to do something, and somebody else has probably shed some blood somewhere over the years. So here’s the prescribed way to do it. It’s no different, like, here’s Granny’s recipe to bake the cake kind of thing. And when they’re being observed, they’ve been observed and how they’re doing following Granny’s recipe. And that’s where the feedback should stay at the feedback should stay at how they do relative to what the task was prescribed, not for people to interject their own opinion on how good or bad a male writer of watermakers Er what they did or didn’t do. And that’s where a lot of people have had bad experiences with the observation component or behavioral-based safety. But certainly, you can’t argue the science is indisputable, in terms of people get a heads up, they know they’re going to be observed that it prompts them to go dig out the recipe card, what’s the right way to do it. And the real scientists would also say that after you’ve watched and observed somebody doing a task for, you know, some people say nine minutes, some will say 13 minutes or people will revert back to whatever I think Mike you might have mentioned before gone or somebody did that. It’s what people do when nobody else is present, and they forget you’re there. So it’s an opportunity to give them feedback. After. And it’s also an opportunity for the observer to get some feedback from another colleague that went with them depending on the model that they use. But what it does provide you, and this is where the bureaucracy takes over, you end up with a paper-driven exercise you end up with, in big organizations, as many as seven levels of leadership that are only worried about the paper flow into the right box and how many pieces of paper got turned in. And virtually nobody has that intellectual or technical understanding of what period to CV is, other than the good, the good safety gal or good safety guy that’s out there getting beaten, whipped on the go make it happen to make the paper flow? Unfortunately, that’s where somebody goes. So I think the science gets lost on it. But I’m a big fan of it. What it’s what it’s done right.

Don Cooper 1:00:45

Next by Stephen.

Stephen Catherine 1:00:51

Yeah, I think the behavioral-based side of things. For me, I’m, you know, when I’ve seen it, over the years, I’ve been through a lot of character changes, you know, processes within our safety systems and behavioral-based, and now, it’s the worldly way. Which is, you know, very common to a behavioral program, I think, you know, to me, the program is designed to encourage people to do the right things when you’re not watching. And I think that’s what we kind of lead towards. Then there’s all the paperwork, that Mike talked about that, that drives the processes. And, you know, our lack of really investing in what a lot of times what what that’s telling us. I, you know, I think when we’re looking at that, you know, there’s differences in the long-term employee and the short-term employee. And I think, you know, inside of the dynamics of that, we need to understand both processes. And sometimes look at hybrid models that encourage a behavioral-based safety program, but also know, there’s an accountability, I think, that sometimes we mess upon around the process. And I know that, you know, we want learnings. And we want, you know, to progress and make the people feel comfortable talking about these things. But I think inside of that behavioral-based safety, there’s also an accountability, that’s also a behavior that sometimes we miss upon. And we don’t take advantage of because of perception and maybe how we think it’s going to affect culture. So to me, you know, I’m a proponent of the behavioral-based safety concepts. I think that when we look at application, a lot of times we need to look at complexity magnitude, whether it’s short or long-term service, folks. I think it works a lot better in the maintenance world than it does in the turnaround role at times. And it’s something again, and I think is, is a tricky, you know, stance to take that, that if you’re thinking about, you know, going 100% behavioral-based safety, I think there’s also that discipline and accountability. And, you know, I’ll be honest with you, we can only learn so much about someone falling on a piece of ice, there’s only so much to learn about that the ice was there, you tripped on it, you made a decision to walk on it, whatever those decisions are behind that is one thing. But there really is not a lot of learnings other than we didn’t eliminate the hazard and we accepted the hazard. And we moved on past that. And I see repetitive issues pop up in those ways. And we go, you know, we’ve got a great culture here. And, you know, we’ve got lots of participation and, and really, from a leadership perspective, you start to think about the accountability of some of those things. And so I think there’s a balance. I don’t think that we should shy away from holding people accountable. And I think there’s tendencies at times to look at doing that. Because of again, the cold we live in today and the way the culture is moving today from a society perspective, and so we want to engage a lot of that. But there still is, you know, a look at both sides of that, that process, right.

Don Cooper 1:05:20

I’m gonna comment on a couple of things you said after I hear from Tyler, because there’s a couple of really insightful things you said that I’d like to at least give you my perspective on. Tyler, what about yourself? Would you be able to base behavior-based safety in general?

Tyler Douglas 1:05:35

Yeah, so I think there’s always been a lot of mixed feelings. Since these programs began to be rolled out, you know, I think the number one from a craft standpoint is the the idea of the rat card. Now, I think we’ve we’ve evolved to some extent from, you know, towel in on this guy for doing this to, to understanding more of the conceptual side of things of the trending and the ability to see hazards and events before they actually occur, you know, again, referencing back to that pyramid model. You know, from an investment side of things, I think the programs can be quite cumbersome, there’s a lot of administrative work that that’s required. And, of course, $1 figure that accompanies. And I think where most companies are falling down is a lack of training of the frontline guys of what the program is supposed to be how to participate in the program, what kind of quality you’re looking at, I think there’s always been a significant focus. And I think, you know, Don Cooper, I think we’re still guilty of it to some extent, in our own house of quality versus quantity, you know, you need quantity for this, for the sake of getting guys into the routine and habits, but then it becomes a matter of trying to coach individuals into, you know, what, what you’re looking for what you’re trying to try, and as opposed to, you know, Bob, His shoes were untied again, or, you know, whatever the case may be. Now, on the flip side of things, I think there’s a couple of significant positives that I have personally recognized from implementing behavior-based programs. Number one, probably first and foremost, is guys in the field are constantly inundated with stimuli, whether that’s, you know, procedures, rules, noise, congestion, whatever the case may be, I think that, you know, once you get somebody to buy into a program, it kind of removes the behavior of, you know, the head down task in front of you, it shifts your focus, and you start looking at your surroundings and individuals that are, are, you know, in your area, and it just kind of opens your awareness to your surroundings and to what might be going on. Secondarily, and probably the most paramount thing is, it’s frontline-owned, you know, so, as much as management can still track and trend, realistically, in my opinion, the idea is to have frontline craft on their own, and their neighbors, behaviors and hazards. So, you know, I think the old adage of you see it, you own it is probably been beaten up a little excessively, but it’s true. You know, it negotiates Don Cooper’s story earlier, where, you know, the white hats come out of the trailer and all the behaviors change? Well, now, it’s not necessarily a white hat, maybe it’s, you know, the scapular that’s working a deck below you, or it’s the, you know, machine that’s, that’s 20 feet away, somebody is always kind of, you know, implementing the idea of a brother’s keeper, there’s always eyes watching, there’s always some kind of trending occurring. And from that trending, you know, that’s, that’s where we shift our focus to whatever the paramount issue or concern is of that day, that week, that month, whatever timeline, you know, that is put forth, you know, to Steve’s point, the ice Yeah, you’re right. There’s only so much you can learn about about a guy slipping on ice and, you know, the behavioral decisions that were made. But if you’re getting, you know, observations of a half dozen people that have taken this Goat Trail, and it’s an icy Goat Trail, well, now you can mitigate it, you can set up a barrier, you can salt, you know, so they’re, depending on, you know, how the company is using the program and the information and statistics and the data that accompanies. You know, you’re right, there’s only so much you can learn, but there is still something you can do about it. And, you know, to further another of your points there, Steve. Tenure seems to be a major thing. You know, it’s I’ve done a handful of turnarounds myself and I find that there’s less, we’ll say, pride in ownership. You know, guys know they’re there for, you know, for for five weeks, and then they’re on to the next. So they’re not really buying into what’s being offered as far as culture and the behavior-based program, they, they’re just, you know, filling out cards or, you know, informing supervision for the sake of a checkbox, as opposed to really getting into the meat and potatoes of what the program is supposed to be, and how to alter behaviors through said program.

Don Cooper 1:10:25

Awesome, Tyler, thank you. I’m gonna, I’m gonna geek out for a little bit, because I know the psychology of this stuff. So here’s what behavior-based safety is, from a science standpoint, it’s based on a psychological concept called antecedent-behavior-consequence. And I’ve got another friend and coach, and he’s a partner in working on some safety and Behavior Workshop. His name is Dr. BJ Fogg. And he’s the behavioral design lead for the behavioral Lab at Stanford University. And it all, BJ says, and I think, I think we all experienced this is that all in 85 to 90% Of all the things that we do every day or automatic behaviors or automatic actions, we don’t even think about it. Think about how you drove to work this morning. Did you remember getting in the vehicle backing up? Do you remember every turn? Half the time we go through life, and we do a lot of things that are automatic behavior-based observation, at its core psychological point of view is to have an outside person, observe the workers, so they can see something that is invisible to them. Because they’re doing it automatically. That could be a good habit, could be a bad habit, but it’s a blind habit because it’s automatic. And the point of the observer is to say, Hey, I know you know, you did this great, you did this great. You did this great. I don’t know if you noticed that every time you go to read that dial gauge, you take your glasses off. Did you notice that? And and then he says, yeah, I have to because you know, the foam inserts fog up or whatever. And then you can do something about it. But 99% of those behaviors that are at risk behaviors are automatic behaviors that are blind to the person who was doing it because it’s become a repetitive, automatic habit. At its core level, if we could get everyone who does behavior-based observations, the frontline craft to understand what your job is, is it’s to make the invisible visible, we could make a big improvement. What I think a lot of our people feel is I’ve got to do an observation, that’s a piece of paper, and then what is going to happen with it. I was fortunate, totally separate from my study and behavior design with Dr. Fogg. In 2004. I had a great leader I worked for at the time, his name was Ken told him, and he rolled out behavior-based safety. And every single one of us went through a two-day workshop on how what behavior-based safety was all about, and how, as an observer and an observer ei should behave in that what I’m supposed to be doing. It wasn’t about the card, it was about the interaction. And learning that my job is as Tyler put it to be my brother’s keeper. But, but the point of it is for me to see what Tyler is doing because I know Tyler’s doing it automatically, and he can’t see it. But if I bring it to the forefront, not now now we know he can be aware of it, we drive awareness and he can change that behavior. I mean, that’s, you know, if all we did in behavior-based safety was train people better and what they’re trying to do, from a peer to peer point of view, I think we would go miles in terms of improving performance. Now, from an insight standpoint, like, what do you do when you got 1000 observations? You know, how can we create some actionable insight for people to, you know, barrier, that icy path, you know, before someone falls, I think that’s the biggest challenge, because when I talked to superintendents and construction manager, friends of mine, that he got 500 people on site, they know everyone’s supposed to do an observation. They got 200 cards back and but they don’t know, they don’t know who participated and who didn’t participate. And they don’t have time to dig into the 200 to find out where the insight is about where there’s a trend interest to find those six observations where people almost had a slip on a trip so they could issue grips or whatever. I think that, I think the part of that that is key is the difference between an organic culture and an intentional culture. And I think, to Steve’s point about new employees versus long-term employees, you know, inside a culture design, one of the biggest things about being intentional is just defining what those behaviors are. And then having your long-term people who are sort of indentured into your intention around your culture to work closely with the newbies and say, Hey, that’s not how we do things here. Here’s how we do things. And I think that that’s, that’s got to be key if you’re going to have, because here’s an interesting thing about humanity and civilization, we either have an intentional culture that leadership defines, or we have an organic culture that just happens. Because humans are cultural people. And so if we don’t create an intentional culture, you’re going to get an organic culture that happens unintentionally, that we can’t direct them guide. I think that’s a really important part. But if, you know, I think if we wanted to get tremendous value, one simple thing out of behavior-based safety is training everyone in how to do an observation of what the point is, regardless of the bloody card, regardless of the piece of paper. Because the piece of paper isn’t for the man to feed, the piece of paper is for someone in management like us to do something with it. But if from a peer to peer standpoint, if we just teach all of our people what we’re trying to do is to make the invisible visible so that you can protect, you know, be your brother’s keeper, and really help them understand that it’s not about ratting people out. And it’s not about filling out a piece of paper, it’s about helping your peer spot an at-risk behavior that he probably isn’t even aware of. I think that can be a really powerful shift. We don’t have a lot more time left, folks. So because we’ve, we’ve dived deep into the details, there are still about eight different parts of the conversation that I wanted to have. Maybe we will, we will have another session and dive into some more of those details on another session. But before I, we take any questions from the few people who are still attending, I’d like to just go around and ask each of you. What’s one thing, one big recommendation that you have to the industry? If there’s one thing we could do that you think would impact keeping our people safe, what would it be? Like?

Mike Daley 1:17:12

Well, it’s a great question. You know, one of today’s probably foremost thought leaders, one of the highest few guys on the internet right now is Simon Sinek. Simon Sinek talks quite frequently around, you know, he’s got a slogan around that a leader is responsible for the people in their charge, as opposed to in charge of people. And you talk about the brother’s keeper. But there’s also an aspect of leadership in terms of leaders. And if you if you if you thought during that we’ve talked about the last hour and a half around culture and behaviors of people knowing what’s what they’re supposed to do, if every leader, you know, if their job description can be distilled down into two or three bullets, I know it’s the world’s a lot more complex. But if it was as simple as my only reason for existing is to make my people successful. And to make them successful, I’m going to make sure I can pinpoint all the expectations, like what does good look like for them. And knowing that I’m going to give them feedback on how they’re doing. And they’re going to get real timely feedback. And that would kind of go in concert with your point on the brother’s keeper party, you know, you mentioned the ABCs, and the antecedents, behaviors, and consequences. And certainly, that’s what it’s all about. And just kind of the pivot back to Steve talked about the ice cleats or people fall on the ice. And that’s the classic. That’s the classic. We’re all the adults, like they’ve heard, exaggerate, but they the adults that are over 40, in that industry have heard like a zillion times, you got to wear your ice cleats, use it as a walkway. So that’s just repeating the antecedents over and over again. And if you kind of get back to there’s a formal behavioral-based bose and the appeals or whatnot, but there’s also a lot of missed opportunities where leaders can be, you know, can be shaping and molding the behaviors before it happens kind of thing. And if you think right now, I know for a fact that these two major sites on October 1 put out the edict that everybody wants to have ice cleats in their possession. Right. And to Steve’s point, you can’t learn nothing, once the once the person’s already on the way to Northern Lights. So they broke their leg. It’s happened kind of thing. But if you just think right now in that region, there’s probably eight or 10,000 people that there’s been an expectation that they have ice cleats in their possession right now as you sit here. And you can kind of predict because it’s happened three or four times over the last 10 years when when two or three people break their leg. Before Christmas, there’s a major global standout across the site and 4000 people get to go sit in the tent and watch that movie again, where somebody comes in and talks about wearing ice cleats and, and walkways. So that’s clearly the lagging indicator of people reacting to it, but the point of influence for leaders right now, and this would be a challenge for all of us to shape and mold those behaviors we talked about to reinforce how to stay safe on that. What are some of the controls? And you can kind of, this rhetorical question, but just think of the 10,000 people that supposedly are supposed to have ice cleats in their possession right now. Within half an hour, that region, how many people have been positively reinforced and thanked in the last week for having those ice cleats? And that kind of gets back to your point on the reinforcement and shaping the behaviors. So that that’s the consequence that they’re going to feel love and joy from someone recognizing that they got cleats with them. And if that can be reinforced over the next three or four weeks, by the time they actually need them, a whole big shift can make the culture and to your point on how do you shape the culture? You shape it through the behaviors because that’s, as you said, that’s the behaviors of what people say or do. And that’s what that’s what’s really cool about behavior-based and leadership behavior-based is that if we all believe that we can observe the behavior, do we give people feedback on it, and if we can observe it, then we can count it and we can shape it. And if we can change the behavior, then we’re changing the culture. So that brings together a lot.

Don Cooper 1:20:51

Awesome. Awesome. Points, Mike. And all things that are simple, just leadership behaviors? Absolutely. Just do it. Like Mikey said, right. Steven, what about you? What’s your best advice, my friend?

Stephen Catherine 1:21:08

I think, you know, again, one thing that I’ve always found very effective is engagement of your clients. You know, I’ve been through that with a couple of clients where engagement from a cultural perspective and participation has really changed outcomes on sites. And so to me, you know, one thing I would encourage folks to do is seek out allies within your client organizations and have them come and participate at a craft level. And it seems to work quite well. And it really starts to build a culture of people on the same path. The second thing I think I would add into that is to make sure that as we talked about, the programs that we are instituting, behavior-based or whatever that is, are relevant and meaningful and follow through upon because that’s what we see a lot of times is that we’re gathering information, and then we’re having incidents come out the other end that are directly related to our leading indicators that we’re trying to garner. And that buys a lot of that culture acceptance when you start to put that out there. And I think if we don’t do that on a regular basis, we start to get a program that basically is about checking a box and not necessarily about the true heartfelt feelings of wanting to send everyone home safely. So to me, those are the two things I think are important is make sure it’s relevant and also make sure that you engage allies within your client systems to help you in this process.

Don Cooper 1:23:19

Love that I love I love the Beyond Sight and engage the workers. I think it’s so important, I think, I think workers, you know, not having to go through your foreman or general foreman to have relationships and reinforce things, I think is so important to create that, that, you know, I think I don’t know who Simon Sinek or who said it, but sometimes you got to say something seven times before your people hear at once. Right. Tyler?

Tyler Douglas 1:23:45

Yeah, I think, you know, my point is, is kind of a collective of the other two gentlemen. You know, Don, you’re well aware, to me, one of the biggest issues that stands with a lot of the programs that we have implemented is the lag in time from reporting until when a feedback loop is closed with a frontline craft. So something innovator specifically is doing is we’re trying to automate our entire system to provide instantaneous feedback. And then the next step of that is having the leadership own it and positively reinforce from the top down. So then not only are you living in the now as opposed to living in the yesterday, but your leadership has accurate data and statistics to provide with the frontline craft. So they feel like they do have a voice. And again, you know, leadership is where culture starts. So once you start, you know, pushing it down the lines. I think that’s a very simplistic way. And the technology exists. We have the programs established, it’s just a matter of, you know, innovating and improving upon. So I think most companies are almost there, but as a quick simple focus to evolve to the next step to where Zero is, is just being more timely and having the message come from the leadership group.

Don Cooper 1:25:08

I love the fact that we’ve spent so much time with AI and automation, just to give us insights. So we can give that feedback. Fast back to our guys. So we can see that there were six at-risk conditions around slips on an icy patch. And we can instantly pivot and say, hey, get more isolates to that job and barter that off before someone falls down. And the technology exists today to do that. But you know, you got to think about how do you how do you take the information on a BBL and use it in a way that workers go? Well, we aren’t we’ve been reporting that for like three hours, and they’re already telling us about it. It’s in our focus on it tomorrow. It’s in our toolbox talk tomorrow. And someone just got an extra three boxes of cleats on here, because they saw what we told them. I imagine if we just did that. For me, guys, one thing I’m going to do, and it’s totally based on my friends, what Steve Caffrey said about Phil, I’m getting a sticker for my hard hat that says Steve said I could do it. And every time we work for warranty, I’m gonna I’m gonna wear that make sure I have that sticker. Steve said I could and and hopefully everyone will, will know that Steve and I are aligned on working safely. So we don’t have any more time left. But if anyone in the audience wants to ask a question in the chat, if you could type it in right now, I’ll pose it to the panel. And we can see if we can get a couple of closing comments. Fred, or Kelly or Thomas or Zach, any of you guys have any questions that you’d like to ask? And we’ll get one last question or two to answer but I’ll only go to one panelist and not not the entire group. I’ll give you guys a moment to type that in. If if you have something that you want to ask

Don Cooper 1:27:00

I’m not seeing anything come in you guys. Were obviously brilliant, because you answered all the other questions. Gentleman, I don’t know about you guys, I thought this was a great conversation, I really enjoyed it. There’s still a lot more that I love to talk about on other topics to dive into this. And if you guys are open to having another session in a month, or two or three, I would definitely love to have you back and continue this conversation. If we can touch two people, 200 people or 2000 people with something that we’ve said here today, and we can stop someone from getting hurt, I think it’s worthwhile. So I’m, I’m passionate over the moon passionate about this. And I’ve just I’ve created a personal moonshot that says over the next 10 years, I’m going to help 5000 companies not hurt anyone ever again, I don’t know how I’m gonna measure that. But it drives my compass in terms of my actions. And, and I just, I really, really appreciate each and every one of you coming on here and adding value to this conversation because we all got to speak up. And we got to do it inside our organizations, and we got to do it outside our organization so that we can really try to facilitate change and improvement. Any final thoughts, guys?

Mike Daley 1:28:18

Michael, just quickly, uh, thanks for the opportunity. It was great to see Steven and learn from Tyler as well. And yourself, Don, your passion to touch so many people and extend yours. My final comment would stitch together you know, we talked about feedback, somebody mentioned timeliness. How do you get that information to people. And just just just like to remind people, there’s a lot of people are workspaces that are craving feedback. And if you think of all the resources that the folks that work for you are constrained, right? They never have enough workforce, never have enough space in the schedule, never have enough cranes, whatever. But feedback is the one thing that they’re not constrained on. And, you know, as quick as we can observe somebody do something and process it, and then spit it back out. Whatever that takes, we can deliver feedback to positively reinforce something and really cool or point out to somebody that there might be a safer way of what they’re doing. And I like to keep myself honest. And that by thinking through that, buddy of mine, coined it, he said, you know, feedback is fast. It’s free. And there’s an endless supply. The only constraint is ourselves and doing that. So thanks for the opportunity. Really enjoyed it. Awesome. Thanks, Steven. Yeah,

Stephen Catherine 1:29:26

just thanks for the opportunity. I think, again, some really good conversations around concepts and kind of where we’re at today. It’s timely for me because I’m certainly looking not at a lot of this with inside our turnaround group right now. In different ways, and so I’ve learned a lot in chatting with you folks, which I knew I would from all our previous engagements, so very appreciative of I’ve been involved in this. And again, I think we’ve come a long ways. It’s, it’s really a matter now of how are we going to get to the end of this and have folks monitored, we can ensure that people are going to go home safely every day, and do the right things when we’re not looking. So I think we’re at the cusp of that. It’s people on this call and other leaders that, that are driving this. It’s a passion of mine, for sure. And I hope we all continue on this path together.

Don Cooper 1:30:37

Thanks, Tyler.

Tyler Douglas 1:30:40

Yeah, I’m just so gracious to be in, you know, on this call with you individuals and getting to learn, you know, from your past experiences and having your knowledge imparted. I think that’s really what drives safety industry-wide, you know, the culture of just sharing and networking. You know, I tend to find more value out of sitting down with individuals like yourselves for an hour and a half than I would in, you know, a week-long course or anything along those lines. It just, to me, it’s more real-world, real-world, and applicable experience. So appreciate your guys’ time and have any

Don Cooper 1:31:18

as part of this for the next generation who’s going to drive the passion, my friend. For me, it’s real simple, guys. This is a journey. It’s progress, not perfection. Take a minute, stop, stop looking forward to zero, start looking back on progress and take the next 100-meter dash to the next level of improving your game and you will, one step at a time, one person at a time. Make sure everyone goes home safe. Everyone, thanks again. Really appreciate it. And now for our listeners. Really appreciate it. And this will be on our podcast and on our YouTube channel in the coming days so that hopefully we’ll be able to share this conversation with 200 or 2000 more people. So again, everyone, thank you so much for being my guest today. I really appreciate your input. Thanks, Don. Thanks for now. Take care. Bye now.

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