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Ep006: Composite Repairs (Technowrap) with Shona Mackenzie of ICR

In this episode of the Industrial Innovators podcast, Don Cooper interviews Shona McKenzie from ICR Technowrap, a company specializing in composite repairs for industrial piping systems. They discuss the benefits of composite repairs, the importance of competency and training, cost considerations, and the future of composites in the industry. Listeners gain valuable insights into the use of composites for extending production life, minimizing costs, improving safety, and reducing disruption in piping systems.

Key Takeaways

Key Takeaways from the Podcast:

1. Composite repairs offer tailored solutions: Unlike traditional repair methods, composite repairs are customized to meet specific needs. They consider factors such as geometry, material requirements, and design life, ensuring the most suitable and efficient repair solution.

2. Enhanced safety and reliability: Composite repairs eliminate the need for hot work, welding, and pressurized habitats, making them inherently safe. With minimal disruption to production and reduced safety concerns, operators can maintain the integrity of their piping systems more effectively.

3. Cost-effectiveness and increased lifespan: By extending the lifespan of piping systems for up to 20 years, composite repairs minimize the need for costly replacements. Operators can avoid premature shutdowns, reduce downtime expenses, and achieve substantial cost savings.

4. Training and competency: Implementing composite repairs requires specialized training and expertise. Collaborative approaches, such as partnering with experienced technicians, can help operators develop the necessary skills and expand their capabilities over time.

5. Revolutionizing industrial piping maintenance: Composite repairs are transforming the landscape of industrial piping maintenance, offering enhanced safety, cost-effectiveness, and prolonged system lifespan. By adopting these advanced repair techniques, operators can optimize their operations, reduce downtime, and achieve significant cost savings.

For more detailed information and expert insights on composite repairs in industrial piping systems, we recommend listening to the full podcast episode. It provides in-depth discussions and valuable perspectives that can help operators make informed decisions and leverage the benefits of composite repairs.

Wyatt McPherson 0:00

This podcast is created and produced by Innovator. If you’re looking to cut back or eliminate hot work on your next job or for all of your industrial services needs, visit innovator.ca.

Hello and welcome to the Industrial Innovators Podcast, hosted by founder and CEO of Innovator, Don Cooper. I’m Wyatt McPherson. I produce this show, and today we are joined by Shona McKenzie from ICR. She and Don will be discussing composite repair and why you should be leveraging it more in your company, as well as a brand new rollout of composite repair solutions and products known as Techno Wrap, which are exclusive to Innovator within Canada for use on your next composite repair job. It’s a fantastic conversation where both Shona and Don provide tons of insight on the technology, which I’m sure you will learn lots from. So let’s hear what they have to say.

Don Cooper 0:53

Good day, everyone, and welcome to the newest edition of the Industrial Innovators Podcast. Today, we’ve got Shona McKenzie from Aberdeen, Scotland, and she is with ICR Integrity. And they will be talking about composite pipe repair and their Techno Wrap range of products. Good morning, Shona. Good morning. And how are things in sunny beautiful Aberdeen today?

Shona McKenzie 1:28

Well, it’s not sunny today. Unfortunately, it was sunny this morning. But no, it’s not so nice at the moment. Cloudy.

Don Cooper 1:36

Well, it’s Aberdeen, right? All you have to do in terms of if you don’t like the weather is wait 10 minutes, right?

Shona McKenzie 1:42

That’s true. What would you expect? At least it’s not raining sideways or snowing. All seasons in. The rain raining sideways, semi-frozen rain, with 60-kilometer-an-hour winds is something that I dearly miss from Aberdeen. Not really. But Aberdeen is a beautiful place on July 18 each year, right? You’ve definitely had experience in Aberdeen.

Don Cooper 2:15

I’ve had lots. I love Aberdeen. We own a place there. And I’ve got tons of friends and family there. And hopefully, some of them will listen in. They all know that I am Facebook famous for podcasts and all this stuff. So once in a while, I think one of them might even listen in to see what this is all about.

So today we’re going to talk about composite repair. And recently, Innovator reformed our business relationship with ICR. And we’re now working with ICR on your Quick Flange Wellness Piping Connection System, which we’ve worked with ICR for many years on that. And we had a little pause for about two years. But we hadn’t worked with ICR on composites before. But Innovator has been doing composite repairs for a long time. So I’m really interested to learn more about Techno Wrap and about how ICR approaches composites. So some of our listeners have already heard about ICR because we had your colleague, Phil Patterson, on a show a couple of weeks ago, and it will be airing in the next week or two, probably one week before or after this show. So people will either hear about ICR from this episode or from Phil’s episode. But in case they hear this one and not Phil’s, why don’t we start with who is ICR Integrity?

Shona McKenzie 3:59

Okay, so ICR is ICR Integrity, a group of six business units. Basically, they were born out of acquisitions or historically from the United Kingdom. And the original company was established back in ’92. So ICR is maintenance and integrity solutions, and we aim to service each element of the integrity lifecycle, looking at things from inspection, preservation, repair, as well as reinstatement of all sorts of different pipework structures. And we also work in a number of different markets. So predominantly, oil and gas has been our history. We obviously started out in the UK and the North Sea, but we also work in power, chemical, mutual, nuclear, and defense as well. So a variety of history across different industries.

Don Cooper 5:01

So let’s talk about this one group. So tell me about the history of Techno Wrap.

Shona McKenzie 5:11

Okay, so Techno Wrap was originally… Well, Techno Wrap is the brand, essentially. Walker Technical was the original company. And that was established in ’92. So that was the original company that was established. It’s been around for the brand itself. Techno Wrap has been around for about 20 years. That was established in 2000. And that’s basically where the name came up to kick in from Techno Wrap. So in that time, we’ve built up a big portfolio of operations and track record. We’ve probably done about roughly 25,000 installations worldwide. So we’ve got some really good in-service history, as well as long-term testing as well. The company’s been around a long time, and we do have a lot of experience in composite repairs. And there’s a lot of knowledge in the business that’s been in the business since its inception.

Don Cooper 6:08

So originally, Techno Wrap and the product range and the company, their founding company, that maybe on a global scale, more people would be familiar with Walker Technical before they would recognize its connection to the newer ICR brand, right?

Shona McKenzie 6:31

That’s correct, yeah. So Walker Technical was the original company that was then brought into the ICR group. Walker Technical was quite a well-known brand name in itself, I suppose globally. And so it’s been a little bit of a struggle trying to drop that and make sure that everybody uses the Techno Wrap brand.

Don Cooper 6:50

Right. Yeah. I mean, when you go through a rebranding exercise with a company that and a product that has a strong name, it certainly takes a while for the new lingo and the new terminology and the new branding to catch on for sure. And, but I just wanted to connect the dots for people who might not be familiar with ICR, that the range of services we’re talking about is the Walker Technical brand. That is now ICR Integrity, and the Techno Wrap product range is the same, well, and evolving all the time.

Shona McKenzie 7:29

Exactly, yeah. It always evolves, you know, new development. We spent a lot of money and time on development as well. So continuously evolving our product range and our testing capabilities as well.

Don Cooper 7:42

Right. So for listeners who have no idea what composite is and Techno Wrap, or for listeners who maybe even have the wrong perception of what composite is, let’s kind of just dive into what is a Techno Wrap composite repair, and how do they work?

Shona McKenzie 8:06

Yeah, so the Techno Wrap range of products is essentially used to restore serviceability of things like pressure systems, pipelines, structural components that possibly have been damaged or weakened from corrosion. So what the product allows operators to do is extend the production life of their plant or asset. And I guess historically, before there was a lot of testing and data available on composites, people saw them as very short-term solutions. And we continuously strive to get away from that message. We see them as defined life solutions, and they’re used for repair ultimately, but they can be put in service and can last anything up to 20 years. So they do have a good service and longevity. The composites that we use ourselves are made up of either glass fiber or carbon fiber stitch cloth. And what we do is we combine that with an epoxy resin. We have lots of different kinds of resins, and they can all be combined together for different application requirements. And the other thing that I guess is important is that every repair that we provide is bespoke and fully engineered. So it’s not just this kind of stick-on bandage and hope for the best. We’re designing this based on the unique requirements of that particular system or the particular loads of a structure, for instance. So they’re all wet layup, hand-applied, which makes them really easy and very quick to install, essentially.

Don Cooper 9:49

You talk about this perception that it’s a band-aid in the past or the fact that it’s engineered. I think that’s probably one of the biggest misperceptions that has developed in the marketplace. Recently, on a video that we had posted on LinkedIn, I was talking about the longevity of composite repairs. And there was a contact who works for a major oil operator, and this gentleman looked like a 30-year veteran in the industry. And he commented on, you know, it’s not reliable, and he referred to it as a muffler for an active leak. And I instantly kind of wanted to get into a little bit of a conversational debate. You know, it really… and I understand the perceptions based on how it has been used for so many years because when I was first introduced to composite repair, I won’t name the particular manufacturer, but they would show up and give you a four-hour orientation on how to wet the product and wrap the product. And they gave you an Excel spreadsheet that you would punch in the parameters that you thought were important around the operating pressure, diameter, defect size, real simple. And it would basically tell you how many wraps to put on the pipe. And they would sell that product to anyone that would buy it without any real competency. There was certainly no engineering beyond the basic calculation that came in a spreadsheet that anyone could make up themselves. So there wasn’t a real sound engineering base, there wasn’t any competency verification, there wasn’t a lot of confirmation on the materials that should be used for the application. And there certainly wasn’t any focus on surface preparation. And so, in Canada and in the United States, a lot of people have a perception that a composite is a band-aid repair that a pipe-fitting crew can grab to wrap on something that’s actively leaking. And we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about something totally different, right?

Shona McKenzie 12:31

Totally different, yeah. And, you know, that’s one of the things I find hardest, especially for me, dealing with Canada and the US. You know, globally, there seem to be quite different in different locations, but it really is about educating clients on the differences. And, you know, it’s quite frustrating that you get the bandage-type solutions, and that’s what we’re compared to because, for me, it’s nothing like that. This is a fully engineered product that has real thought behind it. And, you know, we have all the engineering, which we maintain in-house. And it’s a real robust solution that has a lot of history and a lot of in-service proof, essentially, about how well these things work. So it’s unfortunate that the reputation of some previous companies or the way they work has, you know, tainted the markets. But I think that’s our challenge to try and, I suppose, educate and allow people to understand the uses of composites and where they should be used. The other thing is, you know, it’s important to say that composites are not right for absolutely every scenario. And we would be the first people to say that’s not the right fit for a composite repair. So it shouldn’t be used in that scenario. I think that is really important because I think in the past, they’ve been misused or, you know, applied or used by people that maybe don’t fully understand the requirements.

Don Cooper 14:06

Yeah, I’ve seen it dozens and dozens of times. And as I said, even in the last few days, someone had commented that they thought it was a band-aid, and it wasn’t appropriate, and that the whole plant should be taken down and they should repair with traditional piping methods. You know, I would say to a client, if you can afford to shut your facility down and replace all your piping with brand new piping, and that’s your strategy, go for it. But that’s not really what most clients can do, particularly if you have a variety of erosion and corrosion defects and you’re 18 months or three years away from your next outage or it’s a $15,000 refit for piping. There are so many places where it’s just not practical for clients to rebuild their whole facility. And, you know, what composites enable them to do when done correctly is rehabilitate the piping back to full operating pressures, if it’s engineered properly. Exactly, yeah. You know, from a piping standpoint, the way I kind of try to explain, because, you know, this phenomenon of it being perceived as a band-aid is because of misuse and lack of education. But the way that I try to explain it to clients is you can go down to the local pipe supply shop and buy pipe, and you can take one of your people who kind of sorta knows how to fit and kind of sorta knows how to weld, and they can throw some pipe together. It isn’t engineered. The credentials of the people who assembled it are not controlled. There isn’t an inspection and test plan. And therefore, you wouldn’t put that piping just because it’s pipe into an oil refinery and operate your facility that way. And that’s the same way they should think about composite as a material versus as a solution. You can’t just buy the material and then measure the material based on how you misused it. And that’s how people think about, if you want an engineered product, you would engineer piping in a certain way with an installation procedure and qualifications and an inspection and test plan and with credentialed engineers to design it. And if you would do it that way, then that’s how you should treat how you’re going to repair the piping with a composite solution. Yeah, and then anything outside of that is here in Alberta in Canada, that would, if you didn’t do it that way, then it would be a bootleg solution or a farmer solution, right? I mean, it’s okay, if you’re running your farm to make something work. But that’s not how our industrial clients work.

Shona McKenzie 17:09

Yeah, and there are some scenarios where you need a temporary fix. And we do have a solution that can be used in that scenario. So we have, you know, a simple polyurethane-type bandage, for instance, that can be applied by anyone. And we see that as a very, very different product to our engineered repairs. You know, these engineered repairs require a full design process and also have installation guidelines, or they have to be applied by somebody who’s fully trained in that application. And for composite repairs, the QA, QC, and application process is such a huge part. Because little things can make that repair go wrong. So if it’s not done properly in the first place, you’re essentially setting yourself up for failure, really. So it’s important that you have really good controls and measures in place to make sure that you’re putting that repair on every possible chance for success. And the good thing here, I guess, with how they’re turned in the UK, just as an example. So they’re, they’re sort of classified as defined life repairs. So they’re not temporary, they’re not permanent, because every operator has a different scenario where they may require a repair to last three years, five years, 10 years. So each solution is designed specifically to their requirements, which is quite a nice way to term it, defined life rather than temporary or permanent.

Don Cooper 18:50

Right. And that way, if the particular use case for the client is given a specific set of process temperature and operating conditions, if they require a five-year repair versus a 10-year repair, then the engineering behind that and the way we design that is going to be different, right?

Shona McKenzie 19:17

Exactly, yeah. Exactly. So it may mean that the output of that repair requires fewer layers, for instance, if it was going to be a shorter-term repair. It’s very difficult to give an exact example because there are so many elements that can impact either the length or the thickness of the repair. So, for example, your design temperatures and pressures, your operating conditions, things like the defect size, your landing area, surface preparation, so there’s a lot of thought that actually goes into the design aspect. It’s not just as simple as you have a leaking piece of pipe and you want to stick something over the top of it. It’s been given a lot of thought to actually get to that point.

Don Cooper 19:57

And in the end, when that plan is put together, there’s an engineering package.

Shona McKenzie 20:05

Exactly, exactly, which has a life of that repair. So we can essentially say to you, that repair is going to last you for five years, for instance. So it means that people can put in plans and mitigations to know that maybe after five years’ time, they’re going to replace that piece of pipework, for instance, or for some people, they might want to get themselves to a planned shutdown. So they may be able to use it in that scenario. Or other people, I mean, we still have repairs that are on in the UK that have been on for 15-20 years. So it really depends on the criticality of the system, I suppose, and what you’re trying to do with that repair.

Don Cooper 20:44

Right. So speaking of engineering, you know, we’re not talking about simply that, that we are developing an engineering package for this. There are actually codes and standards that every client in the world can refer to that actually provide the guidance for the types of engineering qualifications and how you should plan on repair, correct?

Shona McKenzie 21:13

Yes, yeah, absolutely. So ISO 24817, known as EASME PCC-2, those are the two international standards that are used. And all of our engineering and design is carried out to that code and the requirements. And basically, all of our design scenarios and material properties, as well as testing, are all validated and qualified to that particular standard. And so it’s important that that is used as best practice for composite repair because it gives really good guidelines. We do go over and above what is required for that actual standard. And we always like to do additional testing just to make sure that we’re comfortable with what we’re providing as a service. We’ve also had all of that audited by independent third parties. So the likes of Lloyd’s Register, ABS, DNV, and so we’re certified as fully compliant to those standards.

Don Cooper 22:17

Right, so designed to the various codes from ISO and EASME. And then all of your testing and validation is third-party validated with factory assessment testing, witnessed by recognized global quality authorities, just like any other pressure component that clients would be familiar with following a similar process. Exactly the same. Right, exactly.

I think that’s one of the big misnomers, particularly in North America, is that there’s a difference between composite material and engineered composite solutions. And the fact that it is, foundationally based on code, that it isn’t made up and that you can’t just grab a package of water-activated material that a lot of people have used and give it to one of your pipe-fitting crews and slap it on and think that that’s something to compare a composite to.

Shona McKenzie 23:24

Yeah, it’s a very different thing. And, you know, we’re fully involved in both committees. So we’re in the committee for ISO and EASME. So we’re always involved in improvements as well for how we can make composites better and more readily available and help people to understand when, where, and why they should be used.

Don Cooper 23:47

Okay, well, before we move on, and I’m going to jump around a little bit, I want to just come back to ICR for a moment and just talk about what markets are you working in. Our podcast has a global audience, and we might have listeners in any part of the world who subscribe. I know I was speaking with some contacts in the Middle East and in India this morning, listening to the podcast, and as our show gets more popular, we’ll hopefully touch clients all over the world in the industrial space. So where, as ICR, are you operating?

Shona McKenzie 24:30

So we were originally from the UK, as you know, but we have our operational bases in the UK, Norway, Australia, USA, and UAE in Abu Dhabi. And those are our main operational hubs, and they allow us to deliver response to partners and clients globally. And the other important part of that is valued partners as well. So we have a number of different valued partners across the globe, for instance, Canada, Trinidad, Africa, Egypt, India, to name a few. So we are a global company. And the good thing about composites is that they’re really easily transportable, I suppose. So you can kind of work in any region, you can offer good quality training programs and support partners to be able to allow them to deliver the service as a part of ICR as well.

Don Cooper 25:29

And, you know, so the ICR business has material engineering, training. And then obviously, you have a variety of other people in different roles in all of those offices you mentioned. And then, in addition to that, you’re going to market with partners around the world, installation partners and sales partners like Innovator and others in other parts of the world where you guys are not located.

Shona McKenzie 26:00

Correct, yeah. But we treat partners as part of the business, you know, it’s equally important to us. And because you’re offering our service, essentially, we want to work together to make that as successful as possible. So, you know, no matter whether it’s…

Don Cooper 26:19

Yeah, we’ve been, you know, I was working with Phil yesterday, just on business planning for the next 12 months and sharing information on what clients are doing and what we’re going to do from a training and a material and an engineering perspective. So we work hand in glove with ICR, and vice versa. So it is a network.

Shona McKenzie 26:43

Yeah, absolutely. Couldn’t agree more.

Don Cooper 26:47

So let’s dive in a little bit. I want to kind of put my hat on, like I’m a client and ask you frequently asked questions from the point of view of a client to help them answer the questions that they might have about composites. Okay, so the first one that comes to mind is, what are the applications from a client perspective that Techno Wrap is suitable for?

Shona McKenzie 27:17

And I guess this, in itself, is one of the benefits of composite repairs is that they’re suitable for so many different applications. So, for example, the bread and butter of ICR was pipework repairs, pressure system pipe repairs. And we also do repairs on pipelines, tanks, vessels, casing decks, all sorts of other structural components. Again, another thing that has been developing significantly for us has been the use of composite repairs in structures, like carbon fiber, and that sort of significant push for us over the past five to 10 years. I guess when people start to see things like airplanes being made out of composite material, they start to grow a different confidence for repairing structural components as well. We have lots of different resins, as I mentioned before, so they can all be combined with different cloths to suit these different applications. And that’s the real benefit of composite repairs. It’s essentially tailor-made to the exact scenario.

Don Cooper 28:21

Right, on the structural side, and that’s an area that I’ve dabbled in a little bit. I’ve mainly worked in composites, more on the pressure side for 20 years, but the structural side, some of the kinds of applications there would be concrete pillars. What other kinds of things can you use from a structural integrity standpoint?

Shona McKenzie 28:44

We don’t actually do concrete repairs, particularly. It’s not a focus area of ours. But structural components made of steel is a huge part of the business. I guess the biggest ones for us would be casings and risers where you’re essentially designing the casing for potential full separation, for instance. You need to consider 100-year wave loadings and almost treating that composite as if there’s going to be full circumferential separation of the casing. So it’s designed to consider real load as well as the internal pressure. You’ve also got repairs, for instance, such as deck repairs, where you’re looking to add additional strength back into a deck that may have foot traffic or it might be a laydown area. We have a specific rubber-toughened epoxy called our Techno Wrap DERS, and that has rubber nanoparticles within it, which allows for impact to be displaced. So it’s a really good product for where a standard composite would be more brittle. We also could look at things like just general structural components, for instance, high axial loaded beams. There are all sorts of different scenarios. And the thing we always say is don’t ever think that it’s not going to be suitable. Allow us to make that decision and have a look at the repair and say, “That’s something we could do” or “That’s something we wouldn’t be able to help with.” But ultimately, it all comes down to the limitations of repairs, which are either pressures and defect sizes or loading.

Don Cooper 30:27

Okay, so from a structural standpoint, structural steel decking, all those kinds of structural components where you can repair, reinforce, strengthen, and restore life back into those components. A lot of that time is, and I know I’ve seen these applications before, when you were using glass, but now there’s a lot more capability and technology with carbon fiber as an option, providing a whole set of new kinds of materials that can be used.

Shona McKenzie 31:11

Yeah, they have different properties. Essentially, we tend to find that we would use the glass cloth, which is a triaxial fiber, combined with epoxy, and that’s more for your pressure systems and pipe repairs. We use structural cloth, which is a quadraxial carbon fiber cloth, so it’s different in the way the fabric is woven. And that’s more used on structural components. But we also have a third cloth, which is our HPPRs, so that’s unidirectional carbon fiber. And that’s generally used in high axial loading scenarios. So all of them can be combined. For instance, it’s not to say that you would only use one cloth. You may use both the structural and the HPPRs cloth, depending on the way the loading scenario is dictated. Yeah.

Don Cooper 32:05

Very flexible. A lot of our clients are in the pressure side of the equation. Give me some ideas on what we’re talking about in terms of temperature and pressure applications.

Shona McKenzie 32:22

Okay, so I’m just trying to think in the right unit of measurement. So in terms of…

Don Cooper 32:26

Okay, well, you know, we have global listeners, and uniquely, our American listeners will be thinking in psi and Fahrenheit, while all our Canadian listeners, we haven’t hybrid because we, on the same documents in Canada, when you get an engineering practice from a client, you’ll be seeing inches and millimeters and Celsius and Fahrenheit. Yeah, we are definitely measurement confused.

Shona McKenzie 32:59

Yeah, I mean, it’s one thing I’ve never been able to get my head around. And I still have to think through before I present it. But yeah, the pressure capabilities are about 250 bar on a 12-inch line. So that’s about 3,600 psi. And that would be for external defects or non-through-all defects. And ultimately, the diameter depends. So the smaller the diameter, the higher the pressure we could get to. But we’d like to just get a rough number and…

Don Cooper 33:32

Have a process facility that kind of covers a wide range of what they’re facing, unless they’re into really high-pressure steams.

Shona McKenzie 33:42

Yeah, the difference, I suppose, would be when the defect is through wall. So then you’re limited by around about 50 bar, 725 psi. And obviously, there’s more to consider. The composite has to do more work. And we would normally consider that with internal corrosion, the pipework is going to go through wall during the life of the repair. So you need to consider the load profile change as well. And we have done testing up to about 18,000 psi on a three-quarter-inch line. So very good results with that, so the capabilities are really, really good. With regards to the temperature ranges, you’re looking at probably around minus 100 degrees Fahrenheit up to about 1,428 degrees Fahrenheit. So minus 75 to 800 degrees Celsius. Sounds pretty good. I managed that time. I think that’s about right.

Don Cooper 34:39

I think between one of those, most people will be able to, if they care about the conversion between Celsius and Fahrenheit, they’ll likely know how to do it. So up to 1,428 degrees Fahrenheit and down to semi-cryogenic temperatures, those are operating conditions. Obviously, installation temperatures need to be different.

Shona McKenzie 35:09

Yeah, I suppose you’re limited by what the technician can apply on, you know, that it has to be safe for our technician. If it’s too hot or too cold, it’s not really applicable. So you may then run into issues with, for instance, the resin curing off too fast if the temperature of the line is particularly hot. And you’re probably limited, yeah, exactly. Or it won’t cure at all. So there are different resin systems that require different ambient conditions to cure. So we would use heat blankets to cure the repair. So there are a number of different scenarios. The low-temperature resin is what we would use for the lower end of that scale. So we mix it up depending on the surface temperatures. We also consider things like the fluid in the line or compatibility with different resins. So we have, for instance, a potable water resin system. So that can be used for drinking water. So there’s no compatibility issues. We have a glycol methanol resin system. Typically, composite repairs don’t really like methanol, alcohol-type fluids. So we designed a specific product range to combat that. Obviously, that depends on temperatures again and concentration of glycol or methanol. So all of these different resins can mix, and each of them has a different limitation that we would make that decision on the engineering side. So the customer would fill in an application form detailing all of this information. And we would make a design assessment based on that and then make a recommendation which would be backed by our engineering.

Don Cooper 37:08

I am falling victim to the working from home phenomena that lots of people in the world are experiencing now. And my daughter and my dog just decided to come into my office, and they’re down at my feet. So I’m having to ask them to either stay calm or exit the premises. They seem to be just cuddled up, wanting to listen underneath my desk right now, which is perfectly fine. I think. I think the whole world… Yeah, they’re both smiling at me right now.

Shona McKenzie 37:40

At least they’re happy.

Don Cooper 37:43

They’re happy.

That’s one of the things I’ve seen a big problem with the use of composites historically when an operator grabs the material and sends the crew out who’s had half a day’s worth of training is they don’t understand anchor profile and surface preparation requirements to actually make the composite adhere and behave the same as the parent material. Why don’t you just talk a little bit about surface prep?

Shona McKenzie 38:18

Yeah, so I suppose this is the one that we bang on about the most because it really is the most important factor with a successful composite repair. So the adhesion is measured with the energy release rate, and the repair performance is basically controlled through the adhesion of the composite repair to that particular substrate. So it’s so important that the surface is prepared in accordance with the engineering. So there are different levels of surface preparation, anything from grit blasting to Sa 2.5 of near-white metal. We can also use mechanical preparation, which is an SG 3 prep, and on very few occasions, hand preparation. We just don’t find that you get a particularly successful composite repair with hand preparation. And it’s ultimately one of the things that can let the composite repair down if it’s not done properly. So it really is one of the most important factors in a composite repair.

Don Cooper 39:19

Right, I think it’s so important for anyone listening to understand what you just said is creating that right anchor profile, that right surface preparation. I would argue that’s probably the highest priority because it seems to be the place where people don’t understand it and therefore want to cut some corners. They don’t want to do the surface preparation. They think, “Oh, it’s clean enough.” But it’s not about clean. It’s about creating a particular surface that allows for the materials to bond.

Shona McKenzie 39:58

Well, it works through mechanical interlocking. So the resin system has to flow into the surface irregularities, and that’s basically what gives you that good adhesion. So without that, you’re not going to get a particularly good bond. It’s so important. And it’s one of the things, you know, people are nervous to prepare lines, for instance. They might think, “I don’t want to do any surface preparation there.” We can design so that the defect area doesn’t actually need to be prepared. So the important part is the landing area, for instance. So as long as there is a good, clean landing area with good preparation, we can consider the defect area or the whole area of a defect or a non-bonded area essentially.

Don Cooper 40:45

Right. So an example for listeners is if they had a very thin area of the pipe that was a couple of inches square, as an example, and they were really concerned about touching that area of the pipe at all because they were just uncomfortable, you could create a design that was, let’s say, for argument’s sake, six feet long or four feet long, where all your surface preparation is going to be on the ends and far enough away from the defect that you can get the right surface prep and not have to do any mechanical work near the defect.

Shona McKenzie 41:25

Yeah, exactly. Theoretically, that’s the case. I mean, some other considerations like the pressure, for instance, temperature, but theoretically, yes, a lot of people get nervous about preparing areas that they may have pitting or pinholes, for instance. So that can be considered in the design. We have multiple different defects that we can design for, whether that would just be a pinhole or a hole defect, or we could design for a full circumferential slot. So that’s assuming that, again, there will be full separation of the pipework. And so there are multiple different types that can be considered. But what we would do is just increase the length of that defect size and treat it all with a non-bonded area if it couldn’t be prepped.

Don Cooper 42:13

So you talk about defects. Let’s just dive in a little bit into the kinds of defects that clients are normally seeing and how you address them.

Shona McKenzie 42:24

Yeah, I guess the most straightforward is external corrosion. So corrosion pits or weld corrosion, for instance. That’s probably the most common scenario for composite repairs, and it’s the most straightforward because obviously, the application of a composite repair would prevent any further corrosion. So that means that the defect size and the remaining wall thickness application will be used in the design. So that’s not going to change. Slightly more complex would be the likes of internal corrosion and through-wall defects or leaks. The application of a composite repair wouldn’t necessarily stop that internal corrosion mechanism. It would obviously continue underneath. What we would have to do is consider in the design that that internal defect would continue to grow over that period of the design life. So they’re just treated slightly differently in terms of how they’re used. It may mean that if it’s internal corrosion and we don’t know what the corrosion rate is, we might need to assume that it would have a shorter lifespan in order to prevent any concerns with the composite repair not working beyond that life.

Don Cooper 43:38

Effectively understanding whether it’s internal or external and what you know about the propagation of that defect, whether you can stop the defect from growing or not, is going to all play into the kinds of the design of the recommended repair.

Shona McKenzie 43:58

Yeah, exactly.

Don Cooper 44:00

And thinking in terms of general ideas, customers will get dents, they will get external corrosion. Corrosion under insulation is obviously a major global issue that composites can be a solution to solve. And of course, if it’s CUI, then we can actually stop that.

Shona McKenzie 44:28

Yeah, absolutely. So the insulation can be removed, and we can apply a composite. It doesn’t even necessarily have to be fully engineered. We can use it almost as a corrosion protection barrier, essentially. So there are lots of different uses for them. But yeah, that’s a great example. And the other one that comes up sometimes is, can it be used on cracks? So I guess the difficulty with that is that it would have to be under certain design conditions. Obviously, the crack orientation and load would need to be considered because axial cracks would obviously continue to propagate with the composite. So that would be considered on a case-by-case basis. But mechanical impacts and dents, for instance, can be repaired.

Don Cooper 45:20

Well, one of the big clients is based in Aberdeen, and you obviously have a company history operating in the North Sea. Can this be used on hydrocarbons?

Shona McKenzie 45:35

Yes, I get asked this all the time. So I would say probably about 60 to 70% of our repairs are on hydrocarbon systems. And we obviously make an assessment on criticality as I said at the design stage, but yes, they are used on hydrocarbon systems all the time in global major operators.

Don Cooper 45:57

Any particular restrictions in terms of the kinds of hydrocarbons that customers can consider? Or again, obviously, it’s a bespoke review each time. Anything stand out on what we could or couldn’t do?

Shona McKenzie 46:14

Um, so I guess high acids can be quite tricky. As I mentioned previously, methanol, glycol, alcohol at very high temperatures and concentration tend to be quite complex. We do have a chemical compatibility list that we can share. But we would always consider the fluid that is in the line at the design stage.

Don Cooper 46:42

So the process stream is always part of the design criteria. Yes.

Shona McKenzie 46:47

It’s one of the questions on the application form.

Don Cooper 46:52

We were talking about substrates. What kinds of materials are we working with?

Shona McKenzie 46:59

Again, the great thing about composites is that if it’s steel, essentially, we can repair it. So any carbon stainless steel, there’s no real concern. I guess the only different consideration is that the substrate material might offer different levels of adhesion. So that would possibly be considered within the design calculation. For instance, composites don’t bond as well to stainless steel. So we may use an acid etching process, and we would do that as part of our repair installation. And I guess the other repair types, we do a lot of repairs on GRE or GRP pipe work, which are very good in terms of adhesion because it’s an epoxy-based material. So you’re not really that limited in terms of the substrates.

Don Cooper 47:54

We’ve talked a bit about Well, we talked quite a bit about how repairs are designed and what approvals are in place. Everything is designed to ISO and Azmi PCC2. Yeah, what kinds of approvals have you gone through beyond the code compliance with third parties?

Shona McKenzie 48:22

So we have a triple ISO certificate for our QA, QC process. We have Lloyd’s type approval, we have ABS design and manufacturing approval, and then we also have DNV type examination. So I guess they’re all just certifying that we are fully compliant with those different codes. ISO and ASME PCC2 are very similar. There are a few slight differences. I would say that ISO requires a little bit more testing, and it’s a little bit more specific in terms of how repairs are classified, in terms of how long they can stay on for. ASME PCC2 terms them short-term or long-term, whereas ISO would say anything up to 20 years. So that’s the main differences.

Don Cooper 49:16

Okay, so on the lifespan, the word that I heard you use that I don’t think I’ve heard anyone use that phrase before that I really liked was “defined life.” Because the question a lot of clients will have is, are these temporary or are these permanent? And what you said was something different that was, I think, more valuable?

Don Cooper 49:41

Yeah, I think describing them as “defined life” means that it’s a tailored solution. So there’s absolutely no point saying they’re temporary or permanent because every single one is different. Some operators may choose to leave a composite repair on for two years, whereas others may choose to leave the repair on for 20 years. So it really is client service and application dependent. The defined life, for me, is a much more suitable way to term it rather than saying temporary or permanent.

Shona McKenzie 50:18

Well, I think from a listener’s point of view and from a client’s point of view, I think the idea of a defined life is really important in the consultation phase. And it’s why we’re asking these kinds of questions because we want to give you the repair that you need. And if you don’t need a ten-year repair, then there are design criteria that play into that, but there’s also a cost. And if what you really need is, you know, particularly right now, where we have the whole world dealing with COVID-19 and dealing with the current collapse of oil pricing, a lot of operators are likely either delaying major pipe works and turnarounds, certainly during the COVID-19 global isolation phase, but also in response to where we’re at with global oil pricing. But they might not need to delay that repair for 10 years, they might need to get till the summer of 2021. And that can have a major impact on what kind of solution we’re going to offer them. If they need to get 18 months, it’s going to be a different repair’s design and a different cost. Simply because there’s less material or a shorter repair or a longer repair. I think customers really need to consider how long do I need this repair to get me to when I’m actually going to repair that piping if I’m going to repair that piping permanently with replacement piping. I think that’s really key. I have a lot of conversations with clients where they go, “Well, how much does it cost?” And the answer often is, “Well, how long is it?” How long is a piece of string because how long you need the repair. And we often look at it from a cost-effectiveness standpoint in the design. Equally, there is the cost of materials and there’s the cost of installation and surface preparation. All of those things play into the longevity of the repair and the conditions, right? So we’ve often done carbon fiber repairs where the material was much more expensive, but because of the dynamics of the repair, in particular, the diameter and length, it was such a huge savings in time to use more the stronger carbon fiber material simply because we didn’t have to put as many layers on for that particular application. It was more cost-effective to use a higher-grade material because it cuts so much time out of the application.

Shona McKenzie 53:16

Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. And we would consider that in our design process as well. So sometimes we’ll look at how many layers, for instance, it would be with our 2k cloth. And if it’s coming out quite a high number of layers, we might say, “Right, let’s switch to our carbon fiber patch and see how many repair layers that would require.” And it’s normally less but, like you said, it’s more expensive cloth. So it’s all about balancing the repair method that you’re offering and also trying to make it the most cost-effective solution possible. I think you mentioned there about cost. And honestly, I get that question every time, “How much is a repair? How much does a typical repair cost?” But it’s so difficult to say that because every repair varies in length, thickness, geometry, and as we’ve said before, it’s engineered on a bespoke basis depending on the criteria. So it’s such a hard one to answer. I always try and say anecdotally, they can save up to 40% to 60% compared to traditional methods. But like I said, it’s such a hard one to put a number on. I would just actively encourage people to give us an example. Give us a scenario and allow us to cost out a typical scenario. That’s the best way to give an example, of course.

Don Cooper 54:36

I think the other part of that, just from educating our listeners’ point of view, is this whole idea of cost. When you are looking at who and how you’re going to compare how you’re going to approach a composite repair, you’ve got to make sure you’re comparing apples to apples in terms of what you’re getting. And for length and value and strength and material and design and surface preparation, because, and I know particularly in Canada and the US, I think it’s because there’s more recognition of code compliance in other jurisdictions relative to composites. But in Canada, in the US, what I’ve seen is a client who doesn’t understand the difference between composite material and an engineered composite solution, they may go out to three companies. Someone is a corrosion prevention plan. And what I’ve seen is they go to someone who is used to wrapping pipe for corrosion prevention and ask them to also give them pricing to wrap with composite. And they were way cheaper, well, they were cheaper because they’re not actually doing it properly. And they’re not giving you what you actually need. They’re slapping three layers of low-cost, water-activated glass on there and calling it a composite repair. And they’re likely not even doing proper surface preparation. I see that an awful lot. And you’ve got to have a lot of proper conversations with the client to qualify what they’re trying to accomplish because often they’ll buy something that is just not what they think they’re going to get. And then you have a bigger issue where you just put 100 meters of the wrong solution on the piping. And now you’ve got to deal with that.

Shona McKenzie 56:38

Yeah, and they’re not made to come off. So…

Don Cooper 56:41

They’re not made to come off. You know, there’s one thing I will say about composites: They might not adhere well, but they’re real tough to take off.

Shona McKenzie 56:50

Yeah, it has to be comparing apples and apples, as you said. So the important question is, what do you need the composite repair to do? Is it to retain pressure? Or is it just purely to stop corrosion? Because they’re two different things, and you’re gonna get two different solutions, right?

Don Cooper 57:08

Yeah, I mean, one is much more sophisticated in terms of structural strength than the other. Exactly. Now, this is a question I get a lot. And I have a couple of particular clients, particularly in Eastern Canada, who have asked me this before, and we have experimented with this. Let’s talk about inspecting through composites. What do you have to say about that?

Shona McKenzie 57:38

Yeah, I mean, it’s a common topic of conversation for us as well. The best method of inspection of composite repairs is visual, and it has to be sort of risk-based, I suppose. But when you have issues with composite repairs, you would often see a delamination which had been initiated, I suppose, more at the edge of the repair, or you would see something like staining of the repair chips, blisters, cracks, things like that. So a visual inspection can really give a very good picture. If you’re talking about inspection of the steel substrate underneath the repair, there are methods that can be used for your standard radiography or pulsed eddy current electromagnetic can be used. There’s also UT methods, dynamic response, which is we worked with a company, Cinematic, to develop a particular UT method. So there are methods of inspecting the steel substrate underneath the repair itself.

Don Cooper 58:46

Yeah, and that’s exactly what I had one engineering authority with a client out in Ontario, was one of the things that they really wanted to see was, you know, we know we have a piping issue or we want to use composite to repair it. It’s an internal erosion and corrosion issue. So how do I inspect the integrity of my piping once I cover it up with an engineered composite? And that’s the one thing that, you know, and a number of years ago, there were very few options. Today, with electromagnetics and more advances in ultrasonics and in pulsed eddy current, I think there’s a whole lot more options to allow clients to give themselves the ability to do integrity checks underneath a composite cylinder has ever been. So I would say, much like the repair, the inspection methods, there are a bunch of inspection methods available, and they’re going to be bespoke to the kinds of repair that we’re doing.

Shona McKenzie 59:58

Yeah, and also the client’s preferences as well, right?

Don Cooper 1:00:05

Let’s talk about failures. Like, how does a composite fail? What’s the failure mode?

Shona McKenzie 1:00:10

Yeah, this is something that a lot of people would shy away from talking about. But it is important, I suppose, to cover the topic because composites can fail. They don’t ever fail in a catastrophic manner. So you’re never going to have any major catastrophic event. You would simply see a small weak area at the end of the repair. And the typical failure mode would be either cohesive or adhesive. We’ve kind of covered the topic already. But the biggest issue is failure of the bond line. So bad surface preparation, if they’ve not prepared the surface and there is no mechanical interlocking, you’re not allowing the composite a chance to work as it should. You could also get failure through the composite, and I suppose that would be from inadequate curing or contamination, potentially. But, you know, while you do occasionally see failures with composites, our failure rate is extremely low, about 0.02%. And generally, it tends to be down to human factors or inaccurate information at the starting point. So that’s why we have such rigorous QA/QC processes, which make sure that the installer is following our process exactly as it should be, with multiple hold points and checks to make sure that it’s installed as per the procedures because deviating from those procedures could mean that you would end up with a failure of a composite repair. It’s so limited, though, when they’re done properly. And that’s the important factor. I think if people have seen failures with repairs historically, it’s probably because they’re using a temporary tape bandage, not an engineered composite repair.

Don Cooper 1:02:00

Well, now that leads to the next question, which is about competency, and you know, many owners out there, certainly they can call ICR. And either you or one of your partners like Innovator can oversee and manage the entire project from data collection right through to installation and sign-off. What can end users install themselves?

Shona McKenzie 1:02:32

They can. So the operator can install Titan wrap, but they would have to be fully trained in ICR’s procedures. So they would go through the same training that our technicians go through. And that would only allow them to install for non-complex geometries, until at the very least they’ve gained enough experience. I guess the benefit of going to the Innovator team or the ICR team is that they’ve installed hundreds and hundreds of repairs over the years. So they’ve seen all different types of scenarios. Whereas the competency for new installers is obviously lower. So we would always recommend initial supervision to make sure that the application was applied in accordance with our procedures. We also do a certification check. So once all the QA/QC has been completed, regardless of who’s installed, we would always review that certification to make sure that we are happy the repair has been applied as it should have been, and then we will sign off on that and say we’re comfortable that the repair has been done properly.

Don Cooper 1:03:43

I mean, the way I say it to clients, I’ve seen one operator who thought that bringing someone in to train them for three days and then they would self-perform was going to be a great cost-effective solution. And the challenge with that is the way I kind of describe it to clients is if we can give you a multi-day training class, and people will have been trained, but they are not competent.

Shona McKenzie 1:04:16

No, because they’ve never installed in real life.

Don Cooper 1:04:20

Competency comes from experience in doing multiple applications. We have people even in our own organization who are trained and competent only in certain types of repairs, but we haven’t qualified them on more complex geometries yet, and they’ve done dozens if not hundreds of standard repair designs. But we will partner up our more junior qualified technicians with more senior people and over time get them qualified on more sophisticated designs, whether it’s geometry over different materials and temperatures. Because it is a craft that is learned over time.

Shona McKenzie 1:05:09

Exactly. And like you said, experience is the important factor. The more repairs you do, the more scenarios you’ve seen. And it’s important to pair less experienced people up with more experienced people so that they can learn.

Don Cooper 1:05:23

Yeah, I mean, one great option that we’ve often offered clients is, you know, we can offer you the training that you’re asking for. But on a go-forward basis, we need to have a collaborative approach. They’ve obviously got some in-house people that they want to get up to speed. There’s some ability to respond. There’s some obviously cost-effectiveness strategies. But a more collaborative approach is we train you, and then we obviously do all the engineering and the material supply. And we will come with our more experienced competent people and get your people to qualifications even on the more standard applications. If it’s simply a 24-inch long, simple repair on a straight run of pipe that isn’t complex, we’ll still go with them. But what we can do from a to try to help them reach their goals is we’ll send one of our senior technicians to work with them, and over time, get their people competent. That way, it’s a partnership, and it helps them accomplish what they’re trying to accomplish without compromising on beginning with the end in mind, which is the end in mind is not about doing it cheaply. It’s about doing it right so that the repair lasts and gets you the result you want. So there’s a hybrid, I think, in the relationship that can get clients there. So I think the answer for clients is yes, we can train you, but it’s better if we train you and then work with you. And over time, get your people competent. Because the other part is that it’s not, you know, from a qualification standpoint, installing composites is not a training event, it’s a progression.

Shona McKenzie 1:07:16

Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. And competency forms a huge part of the ISO and ASTM E Standard as well. So it really is an important factor.

Don Cooper 1:07:26

Yeah, we often will take our one- and two-year technicians who have been doing this for just a couple of years, and they go on every job with 10-year veterans who do this all the time.

Shona McKenzie 1:07:36

Yes, it’s the best way to learn.

Don Cooper 1:07:41

So the last question, which is always the first question that clients ask in the Frequently Asked Questions side of this is, “How much does it cost?”

Shona McKenzie 1:07:52

Yeah, I kind of mentioned this already. I briefly covered it. But it’s such a difficult question to answer. And some people probably think that it’s just a cop-out answer, but it’s not. The truth is, every single repair is different. So while we’re giving you a bespoke engineered repair, that also comes with a varying price dependent on the length, the thickness of the required repair, the design life that you’re looking for from that repair, and maybe the geometry. Every repair that I ever do is all different. So it’s very, very hard to say. There are some huge cost savings for the client when using composite repairs. And I guess the biggest of that being that they can be applied live. So it means that operators don’t need to shut down where it’s not necessary. So that’s obviously a huge cost saving for clients. And it can also be carried out with minimal disruption as well, opposite to any operation. And again, that drives really big cost savings. So it’s about thinking about the bigger picture. You know, how much could you save if you’re not having to, for instance, weld? There’s no pressurized habitats required. You know, there are a lot of savings in terms of the personnel on board. So there’s a variety of different factors to consider in that.

Don Cooper 1:09:12

Well, not just the welding and the habitats, but all of the planning and the indirect costs relative to hot work are significant. For today, in today’s market, our clients are facing a perfect storm of decreased demand because of COVID isolation, along with the current events happening in the world, a collapse in the price resulting from that, and likely a protracted recovery. This is causing from a head office standpoint, head offices saying delay projects and defer or postpone that turnaround. So from a value standpoint, a lot of the piping that you were planning on replacing this spring and summer, now you have to look at other ways to do it.

Shona McKenzie 1:10:09

Absolutely. And I guess a composite is the perfect solution for that because there will be minimal disruption to production. And it means that they can design that to see them through to the next available shutdown turnaround that they have, which means there’s no additional cost requirement because obviously corrosion doesn’t stop. So unless you put a composite repair on it, it’s still going to continue. So you need to find a way to stop that. And if changeout isn’t a possible solution, then composite repairs are the ideal option.

Don Cooper 1:10:44

Our clients don’t have any pause button like the world has right now on corrosion. Whether it’s process-based corrosion or atmospheric-based corrosion, it’s happening every day while we’re all trying to work at home. Corrosion doesn’t stop. So, you know, we’ve covered everything that we normally hear in terms of the kinds of questions that clients ask. Let’s dive in just a little bit. And I like to kind of end our podcasts with some insight on what customers should be asking us and asking themselves from an insight and value point of view and how they should be thinking about composites, that change mindset. So at the highest level, what should customers be asking themselves about the benefits they can gain from Technowrap and using composites?

Shona McKenzie 1:12:01

There are so many benefits to using composite repairs. We just covered one of the biggest benefits: operators can extend production for up to 20 years and significantly minimize costs. Rather than having to go for a full replacement of a system, it can be carried out with limited disruption. So that, in itself, has huge cost savings for the customer. And I guess the other benefit is that another thing we’ve spoken about, the theme of this, is that the repairs are bespoke and engineered. At ICR, we really take pride in our engineering, and we’re very honest in what we do. So if it’s not the right job, then we will absolutely turn it down. If it’s not a suitable application, the benefit is that the majority of applications are suitable. So there aren’t that many that we do have to turn down. And again, they can be used for a significantly long time. And other than that, there are huge safety benefits. The installation is relatively straightforward if you know what you’re doing. And it’s inherently safe. There’s no requirement for heavy lifting, which you would have with a changeout. No hot work, again, reducing safety concerns. And again, limited POB (Personnel on Board) on a platform. So there are safety benefits, cost benefits, and time-saving benefits as well.

Don Cooper 1:13:39

That checks all the boxes, doesn’t it? Well, and that’s what Innovator tries to deliver with clients—improving safety, improving productivity, and improving cost-effectiveness with innovation. Any final thoughts that you think our listeners should know about ICR Technowrap or composites?

Shona McKenzie 1:14:01

I think it’s just important to remember that these repairs go through a stringent thought process. It’s not a simple stick and a bandage and hope for the best. This is a quality-engineered repair. And I would encourage anybody to think about any scenarios that they may not be sure if it’s suitable for a composite repair and let us have a look. We’d be happy to work in a consultative manner because it requires input from both the operator and from us to get a solution that can hopefully save time, cost, and improve safety.

Don Cooper 1:14:41

Perfect. In Canada, we have another layer of pressure authority. We have local pressure authorities that add another layer of complexity to composites. They haven’t all fully created guidelines for owners and operators to leverage composites. But there is a working group, a composite working group, in Western Canada with a whole array of industry stakeholders. They are currently working on creating guidelines and authorizing composites in a more formal manner. Our Technical Director and General Manager, Chris Grooms, is on that working group. So I encourage listeners who are looking at composites in Canada to reach out to us and see how we can help you participate in that. Look at the kinds of pilot programs that we’re doing with some of the owner-operators around the country. Our goal is to get Canadian pressure and industry at the same level of leveraging this technology in a custom engineered and controlled manner that many other jurisdictions in the world have without feeling like they’re in non-compliance. That’s our goal. So we’re working heavily on that. Over the next few months and year, we hope to create a much more standardized flow. We’re going to be working with ICR and Technowrap to bring those solutions to clients. Shona, I really appreciate you coming on board. This was a great conversation. I think it gave our clients or prospects and our listeners a lot of valuable things to think about. You know, what I love about doing these podcasts is they live on the web and on the cloud, and now we can send a lot of our clients to come and listen to this conversation time and time again. So I really appreciate you coming on board, and please stay safe and ride out this crazy isolation time that the whole world is experiencing. Aberdeen is my family’s second home, so hopefully, if I don’t see you in Canada, I will see you in Aberdeen sometime in the next few months. I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Shona McKenzie 1:17:46

Thank you very much for having me on. Appreciate it.

Don Cooper 1:17:49

You stay safe.

Shona McKenzie 1:17:51

And you, thank you.

Wyatt McPherson 1:17:53

And there you have it. We truly hope that you’ve enjoyed this episode of the Industrial Innovators podcast. If you’d like to check out either of our guests or their companies, you can find Shona and ICR at icr-world.com, and you can always find us at innovator.ca. Please don’t forget to leave a rating and, of course, subscribe so you never miss an episode. We’ll see you next time on the Industrial Innovators podcast.

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